Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[gunnerblue]

Energy is FAR from irrelevant. What you're saying is tantamount to arguing that a boulder won't make a bigger splash than a pebble if thrown into a lake. .44 mag will absolutely make a giant stretch cavity that's more than big enough to tear the flesh and create an appreciable permanent cavity. Might seem small by comparison if you shoot a water buffalo with it, but it will absolutely be there.

I said that it was LARGELY irrelevant because it is.

My counterpoint to your .44 magnum comment was that it is not considered weak by any means by handgun hunters. Perhaps I misunderstood you point.

I have shot big game animals in the heart/lung area with solid rounds. The bullets did not deflect, tumble or create a visible stretch cavity upon examination.

[WillBrink]

I said that it was LARGELY irrelevant because it is.

My counterpoint to your .44 magnum comment was that it is not considered weak by any means by handgun hunters. Perhaps I misunderstood you point.

I have shot big game animals in the heart/lung area with solid rounds. The bullets did not deflect, tumble or create a visible stretch cavity upon examination.

I will split the diff in sense here: the doc who is the SME on this topic, had said that up until 44mag, energy largely irrelevant due to stretch cavity not large enough to cause perm wounding effects. 44mag starts to act more like rifle calibers in that it can created a stretch cavity that causes perm wounding effects.

Personally, when ever I'm discussing handgun load terminal ballistics, as it applies to SD/HD, I mean typical duty loads: 9mm, .40, .45, .357. at typical velocities. That of course not accounting for bullet design, which is a another topic in the variable.

Hunting loads are a different animal. Pun intended.

[okie]

I said 357 MAXIMUM. Out of a 10.5" barrel it has over 1300 ft/lbs of energy, so it is beyond any factory 44mag ammo and on par or better than hot 44mag handholds. Its a pistol caliber but its well into intermediate rifle ballistics

Don't know what to tell you other than I've seen deer innards shot with handguns in the 1k ft lbs range that absolutely showed significant permanent cavitation. Heart and lungs completely destroyed etc.

[okie]

I will split the diff in sense here: the doc who is the SME on this topic, had said that up until 44mag, energy largely irrelevant due to stretch cavity not large enough to cause perm wounding effects. 44mag starts to act more like rifle calibers in that it can created a stretch cavity that causes perm wounding effects.

Personally, when ever I'm discussing handgun load terminal ballistics, as it applies to SD/HD, I mean typical duty loads: 9mm, .40, .45, .357. at typical velocities. That of course not accounting for bullet design, which is a another topic in the variable.

Hunting loads are a different animal. Pun intended.

Spot on.

[WillBrink]

Spot on.

I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.

[okie]

I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.

Not sure really, because a 357 revolver with a 6 inch barrel is soft shooting and plenty powerful, and would pair well with a 357 lever gun. That would be a really handy combo for anyone living in the rockies. Plinking, hunting, self defense, bear defense...those two would do it all. And it would be cheap and easy to keep them fed because you would only need one reloading setup and you could even cast your own lead bullets very easily.

[Ron3]

I agree. thats why the few times I carry a 32 acp I carry buffalo bore wfn loads. The 22 25 23 and even 380 are all known to occasionally deflect off bone such as the sternum or skull. That flat nose is less likely to deflect and more likely to penetrate sufficiently. And maybe it ever so slightly increases wounding

I carry the .32 WFN Buffalo Bore in the chamber of Beretta 81fs. It's a bit too short to trust feeding from the magazine.

9mm , .40, 45, etc. sometimes bounce off heads or get stopped by baggy clothing, etc. too just less often.

[Ron3]

I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.

Yea, where's our .357 Mag Rimless for semi-auto carbines? 😃

Or a tube-fed semi-auto .357 Mag with 3 position gas port. (.357, .38, off)

Maybe a rotary mag like the old Ruger .44 carbine? With a bulged stock for housing a 10 round removable magazine? (And look a bit like a mini Johnson rifle 🙂 )

[WillBrink]

Not sure really, because a 357 revolver with a 6 inch barrel is soft shooting and plenty powerful, and would pair well with a 357 lever gun. That would be a really handy combo for anyone living in the rockies. Plinking, hunting, self defense, bear defense...those two would do it all. And it would be cheap and easy to keep them fed because you would only need one reloading setup and you could even cast your own lead bullets very easily.

Plenty of Lever action .357 mag exist, but I don't want a lever action rifle. Ruger seems to make semi auto carbines in damn near every handgun caliber, why not .357 mag?

Yea, where's our .357 Mag Rimless for semi-auto carbines? ��

Or a tube-fed semi-auto .357 Mag with 3 position gas port. (.357, .38, off)

Maybe a rotary mag like the old Ruger .44 carbine? With a bulged stock for housing a 10 round removable magazine? (And look a bit like a mini Johnson rifle �� )

There was another thread I'd said same and there was a lengthy discussion on that one. E The one caliber that seems to benefit the most in handgun rnds from longer barrels, hardest to find as semi a auto carbine. I'd seriously consider a semi auto .357 carbine, where as i have no real interest in handgun caliber carbines in 9mm, etc.



What am I missing there? Feeding issues?

[Ron3]

Plenty of Lever action .357 mag exist, but I don't want a lever action rifle. Ruger seems to make semi auto carbines in damn near every handgun caliber, why not .357 mag?



There was another thread I'd said same and there was a lengthy discussion on that one. E The one caliber that seems to benefit the most in handgun rnds from longer barrels, hardest to find as semi a auto carbine. I'd seriously consider a semi auto .357 carbine, where as i have no real interest in handgun caliber carbines in 9mm, etc.



What am I missing there? Feeding issues?

Sure.

But it's not like other rimmed cartridges haven't been made in semi and even full auto guns.

The .357 Coonan of course but also doesn't .303 British have a rim? 7.62x54R is another one. .22 of course. I'm sure there are more.