Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[Straight Shooter]

On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.

On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.

This has been observed for decades now. I remember reading Ross Seyfried articles in the latter '70's, talking about how the size of a bullets meplat was directly related to killing/stopping power.
I remember thinking the first time I heard the term "meplat" I was wondering "what the hell is a meplat"?! NOBODY KNEW! But I learned awhile later what is is.
Later readings of Keith and a few others all said the same thing. All the big game hunters back then agreed meplat was important in killing/stopping power.
And Ive read more than one article on the effect of wadcutters as SD loads. But, as long as there is HST & GD, I aint going there.

[WillBrink]

Ding Ding Ding. Winner winner, chicken dinner.

You would be surprised how many headshot victims end up in ER or are found just stumbling around the crime scene after taking a 9mm, .40, .45 round nose FMJ to the skull that just glanced off, traveled under the skin and exited out of the scalp the other side.

Its almost like the skull was specifically shaped by evolution or something to protect the brain by deflecting glancing impacts. Combine that with a round nose projectile that already is prone to deflecting and you get reports of people getting shot execution style with round nose projectiles surviving with just soft tissue wounds to the scalp.

Bullet shape and construction have more to do with how a bullet will react to meat and bone targets than diameter. I highly suggest reading some Jim Carrillo for some nice anecdotes on people surviving FMJs to the head.

I prefer his stories of how many handgun rnds the goblins absorbed and fought on as "real world" examples of the fact all handgun rnds in duty loads are poor man stoppers when someone says one rnd from (fill in caliber here...) will end the fight. Of course bullet tech today is very different from his day, but not enough to change that reality. He had one story where he and his partner emptied their handguns into a guy, large caliber handguns too I recall, and the goblin still fought on. I don't recall how it finally ended, but it was a story he told about the toughest person he ever dealt with. For some reason, I want to say he was using a .45 Colt revolver, but that maybe faulty memory on my end.

[1168]

I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.

I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.

I have not read J Carrillo.

Ding Ding Ding. Winner winner, chicken dinner.

You would be surprised how many headshot victims end up in ER or are found just stumbling around the crime scene after taking a 9mm, .40, .45 round nose FMJ rd to the skull that just glanced off, traveled under the skin and exited out of the scalp the other side.

Its almost like the skull was specifically shaped by evolution or something to protect the brain by deflecting glancing impacts. Combine that with a round nose projectile that already is prone to deflecting and you get reports of people getting shot execution style with round nose projectiles surviving with just soft tissue wounds to the scalp.

Bullet shape and construction have more to do with how a bullet will react to meat and bone targets than diameter. I highly suggest reading some Jim Carrillo for some nice anecdotes on people surviving FMJs to the head.

[wil]

I don't worry about "what type of ammo is best?" I use 200 gr cast semi-flat nose in a 1911 and as has been previously stated, hits are what is most important.

If I had to use ball ammo in my own HP, I don't worry about that either. A whole lot of people have been killed in this world by 9mm ball ammo.

Truthfully reliable feed & extraction is more important to myself and if ball ammo is what I need to do that, so be it.

[wil]

I don't worry about "what type of ammo is best?" I use 200 gr cast semi-flat nose in a 1911 and as has been previously stated, hits are what is most important.

If I had to use ball ammo in my own HP, I don't worry about that either. A whole lot of people have been killed in this world by 9mm ball ammo.

Truthfully reliable feed & extraction is more important to myself and if ball ammo is what I need to do that, so be it.

[wil]

please excuse the double post, not sure how I did that.

[vicious_cb]

I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.

I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.

I have not read J Carrillo.

No it doesnt, but its been documented enough that people shouldn't be surprised when a dome shot doesnt end the shenanigans and should train for that eventuality. The "T-zone" or 3x5 index card targets centered around the orbitals/nasal cavity wasnt invented in a vacuum, I guess even the large LE institutions figured out aiming for the buttress bone of the forehead wasnt a smartest idea like in the movies.

I was specifically talking about the skull glancing rounds, the more lateral the hit, the higher chance of it glancing off the skull. I hope more people train to aim more midline and use ammo that is less likely to ricochet.

As for the face, its rare but I have seen some crazy trauma slides. Check out the slides by Dr. Sherman A. House, where a dude walked into his clinic with the complaint of "I cant open my jaw". The x-ray found that he had a .45 bullet lodged between the base of his skull and lower mandible. The dude then gave up his story where he got shot in mexico execution style with a .45 to the face, it entered just below the orbital next to his nose where the bullet bounced around his sinus and down into his mouth and ended up in the soft tissue behind where your wisdom teeth would be. This dude woke up after being shot in the face, illegally crossed the border into the US and ended up in a clinic in Tennessee. The extracted bullet was a 230gr hydrashock, where you could clearly see the "post" of the expanded bullet.

I prefer his stories of how many handgun rnds the goblins absorbed and fought on as "real world" examples of the fact all handgun rnds in duty loads are poor man stoppers when someone says one rnd from (fill in caliber here...) will end the fight. Of course bullet tech today is very different from his day, but not enough to change that reality. He had one story where he and his partner emptied their handguns into a guy, large caliber handguns too I recall, and the goblin still fought on. I don't recall how it finally ended, but it was a story he told about the toughest person he ever dealt with. For some reason, I want to say he was using a .45 Colt revolver, but that maybe faulty memory on my end.

That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun. The most important part of modern bullet technology is CONSISTENCY ie. decreasing the chances of bullets doing weird things especially after impacting intermediate barriers.

Sadly alot of people can't choose what they carry in their guns. Understand the limitations of ball ammo, especially in regards to ricochet. As for the people to CHOOSE to carry ball ammo and not in a pocket gun capacity. You can lead a horse to water but if the horse is too retarded to drink...I think thats how the saying goes.

[WillBrink]

That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun. The most important part of modern bullet technology is CONSISTENCY ie. decreasing the chances of bullets doing weird things especially after impacting intermediate barriers.

Sadly alot of people can't choose what they carry in their guns. Understand the limitations of ball ammo, especially in regards to ricochet. As for the people to CHOOSE to carry ball ammo and not in a pocket gun capacity. You can lead a horse to water but if the horse is too retarded to drink...I think thats how the saying goes.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

[Arik]

Truthfully reliable feed & extraction is more important to myself.

With the quantity of quality guns and ammo today this shouldn't be a problem. Like worrying about rough idling or flooding a carbureted car

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[Arik]

No it doesnt, but its been documented enough that people shouldn't be surprised when a dome shot doesnt end the shenanigans and should train for that eventuality. The "T-zone" or 3x5 index card targets centered around the orbitals/nasal cavity wasnt invented in a vacuum, I guess even the large LE institutions figured out aiming for the buttress bone of the forehead wasnt a smartest idea like in the movies.

I was specifically talking about the skull glancing rounds, the more lateral the hit, the higher chance of it glancing off the skull. I hope more people train to aim more midline and use ammo that is less likely to ricochet.

As for the face, its rare but I have seen some crazy trauma slides. Check out the slides by Dr.Sherman, where a dude walked into his clinic with the complaint of "I cant open my jaw". The x-ray found that he had a .45 bullet lodged between the base of his skull and lower mandible. The dude then gave up his story where he got shot in mexico execution style with a .45 to the face, it entered just below the orbital next to his nose where the bullet bounced around his sinus and down into his mouth and ended up in the soft tissue behind where your wisdom teeth would be. This dude woke up after being shot in the face, illegally crossed the border into the US and ended up in a clinic in Tennessee. The extracted bullet was a 230gr hydrashock, where you could clearly see the "post" of the expanded bullet.



That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun. The most important part of modern bullet technology is CONSISTENCY ie. decreasing the chances of bullets doing weird things especially after impacting intermediate barriers.

Sadly alot of people can't choose what they carry in their guns. Understand the limitations of ball ammo, especially in regards to ricochet. As for the people to CHOOSE to carry ball ammo and not in a pocket gun capacity. You can lead a horse to water but if the horse is too retarded to drink...I think thats how the saying goes.

I remember reading a few years ago some lady got smacked with a 44 in the forehead and the bullet shattered on impact

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