Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[C-grunt]

I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.

I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.

I have not read J Carrillo.

Ive seen bullets deflect off of skulls and other large bones multiple times. I posted about it in the "bullets ricochet off people" thread. In my experience the teeth and cheek bones will deflect rounds pretty regularly. Just kinda depends on how lucky you are as whether the bullet deflects deeper into the head or outwards. Overall bullets deflecting off bone definitely isnt the norm, but Ive seen it happen enough that it isnt surprising at all when I do see it.

[C-grunt]

I wouldnt never fault the shooter for dumping a magazine into someones chest cavity and they still didnt go down. You can miss vital structures and major bleeders by mm's and the they'll still keep on fighting. Conversely you can blow up someones heart and they still have enough o2 in their brain to fight for another 20-30 secs.

A few years ago we had a detective get killed in a gunfight. He was part of a specialized unit that specifically hunted known violent suspects. Think murders, robbery crews, rapists, etc.. They wear plain clothes and drive UC cars and have their raid vests in the car.

The day in question two of the detectives are driving around and randomly run into a murder suspect they are looking for. The guy opens fire on them with a 357 magnum before they can even stop the car. Driver gets hit through the abdomen and the passenger takes one center chest, straight through the heart. The passenger detective gets out of the car with his AR and shoots the suspect about 10 times before he dies. Bad guy was DRT.

[T2C]

Ive seen bullets deflect off of skulls and other large bones multiple times. I posted about it in the "bullets ricochet off people" thread. In my experience the teeth and cheek bones will deflect rounds pretty regularly. Just kinda depends on how lucky you are as whether the bullet deflects deeper into the head or outwards. Overall bullets deflecting off bone definitely isnt the norm, but Ive seen it happen enough that it isnt surprising at all when I do see it.

We had two officers chase a car load of home invasion suspects and the situation ended with a gun fight on an interstate. One suspect was shot twice in the head with a Colt SMG firing 9mm 115g JHP +P+ ammunition. One round struck the suspect in the forehead above the nose and one round struck the suspect over the right eye at a distance of 17 yards. Both projectiles did not penetrate the skull. One projectile was recovered just below the skin behind the right ear and the other projectile was recovered just below the skin at the base of the skull above the spine. The suspect stopped fighting when he was hit multiple times in the lungs. The suspect was treated at a local hospital and released three weeks later.

In another case, a person tried to commit suicide by placing the muzzle of his 1911 against his right temple and shooting himself in the head. The 230g FMJ projectile did not penetrate his skull and was recovered just below the skin on the opposite side of his head.

The only thing you can expect handgun projectiles to do is to do the unexpected.

[yoni]

Exactly. I'm guessing Yoni would have fired dry with a 9 as well.

Teamwork rules.

In the first incident with the 1911, I was so focused on the arm with the hatchet in it I don't remember counting the rounds I had fired. I was surprised when the pistol went to slide lock.

In the second incident I remember counting the rounds, and remember the thought of transition to head. I didn't shoot the 9mm to slide lock. one shot under the jaw then up through the head.

I think more experience is part of it, but I also think that the more rounds you have before you have to reload is a great thing. I coined the term economy of motion. Which simple means more rounds down range between need to reload.

[yoni]

I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.

This is why I am so curious about the Leigh Defense round a 65 grain 9mm that is around that 1800fps or even a little more out of a slightly longer barrel.

[WillBrink]

This is why I am so curious about the Leigh Defense round a 65 grain 9mm that is around that 1800fps or even a little more out of a slightly longer barrel.

Very curious myself.

[sinister]

I think more experience is part of it, but I also think that the more rounds you have before you have to reload is a great thing. I coined the term economy of motion. Which simple means more rounds down range between need to reload.

I can't argue that.

In exchange training with two federal agencies the first had the policy (using 9mm SIG P226s) of "One man, one magazine. Follow him down to the ground."

The other had a (9mm P228) drill where you drew on a 7-yard target and shot to slide lock as fast as you could, reload, and shoot that one to slide-lock as well. Walking the line it was surprising how many had hits all over the silhouette, with occasional leakers off-target. The instructors' point there was to shoot them in the center as fast as you can using a flash sight picture.

I stole a technique from Pat Rogers when he transitioned to 9mm. "Shoot him 'til he stops fighting, changes shape, or catches fire."

Between us, my brother holds the pistol gunfight standard for killing a guy during a rolling, wrestling fight (including a large knife) when he drilled the person once in the chest with a .45 SIG P220. I get satisfaction in having given him the (optional) SIG when he was issued Glock and Smith .40s.

[yoni]

I can't argue that.

In exchange training with two federal agencies the first had the policy (using 9mm SIG P226s) of "One man, one magazine. Follow him down to the ground."

I stole a technique from Pat Rogers when he transitioned to 9mm. "Shoot him 'til he stops fighting, changes shape, or catches fire."
.

I favor the Pat Rogers saying. I have a problem with one man, one magazine. You program your troops into just a mag dump no matter what, in the end you will have a situation where the guy drops his weapon and the agent keeps shooting.

[sinister]

I have a problem with one man, one magazine. You program your troops into just a mag dump no matter what, in the end you will have a situation where the guy drops his weapon and the agent keeps shooting.

It was guidance for mental preparation, not mandated.

[yoni]

Very Strange double tapped by itself a lot latter in time.