Help me pick my first "real" optic

[Warp]

I'm a fan of Leupold.

That said, I'm not super sold on the whole LPVO thing. I've had several, and I noticed the same thing everyone else does, you never use the magnification range. You either use it at 1x (and most are truly lacking in that department) or all the way zoomed in.

With that in mind, I'm starting to warm back up to either magnifiers or offset micro red dots. Not saying LPVOs are bad, but the good ones are crazy expensive, and I'm just not sure if they really offer any extra utility. The only I've seen that really makes sense to me is the S&B short dot, and yea, crazy expensive.

If you do decide to go that route, I would emphasize 1st focal plane. There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. Even then, many if not most have extremely fat reticles that are essentially useless at distance. The good ones have a separate dot in the second focal plane, but again those are the really expensive ones.

It's not difficult to find a reticle that's good at 1X and also good for more precise shots at least through the point blank range of a typical AR, so 200-250 yards depending on specifics.

What scopes/reticles have you used?

Just using a flip to side magnifier because of the "you only use 1x or max" might make more sense if magnifiers had better eye relief or if they had more magnification than literally half (or less than half) of what most LPVO's have. 3x with short eye relief and darker glass just doesn't compare to 6x+ and clearer glass with more eye relief

[okie]

It's not difficult to find a reticle that's good at 1X and also good for more precise shots at least through the point blank range of a typical AR, so 200-250 yards depending on specifics.

What scopes/reticles have you used?

Just using a flip to side magnifier because of the "you only use 1x or max" might make more sense if magnifiers had better eye relief or if they had more magnification than literally half (or less than half) of what most LPVO's have. 3x with short eye relief and darker glass just doesn't compare to 6x+ and clearer glass with more eye relief

Magnifiers have come a long ways in the last few years, just like LPVO. Either way, there are tradeoffs. At least the magnifier route doesn't suck at 1x, and is okay at 3x or 6x. Whereas the average LPVO has distortion at 1x and a crappy reticle that sucks at any range. Like I said, there are decent ones out there, but they're super expensive.

Unless you're prepared to spring for a Short Dot, I think a fixed power scope and offset RMR give you more utility.

[Warp]

Magnifiers have come a long ways in the last few years, just like LPVO. Either way, there are tradeoffs. At least the magnifier route doesn't suck at 1x, and is okay at 3x or 6x. Whereas the average LPVO has distortion at 1x and a crappy reticle that sucks at any range. Like I said, there are decent ones out there, but they're super expensive.

Unless you're prepared to spring for a Short Dot, I think a fixed power scope and offset RMR give you more utility.

A good LPVO selected to do well at 1X also does not suck at 1X. And it doesn't have to be super expensive.

What 6X RDS magnifier are you using?

I notice you chose to avoid answering the "what scopes/reticles have you used?" question. Why is that?

What RDS and magnifier are you using for the comparison?

[okie]

A good LPVO selected to do well at 1X also does not suck at 1X. And it doesn't have to be super expensive.

What 6X RDS magnifier are you using?

I notice you chose to avoid answering the "what scopes/reticles have you used?" question. Why is that?

What RDS and magnifier are you using for the comparison?

I'm not going to play the pissing match game. I know all too well how that goes.

That said, even the best ones still have distortion at 1x, and the mid tier ones have a lot of it, and the entry level ones can't even be said to have a 1x setting period.

And any reticle that's good for a dot at 1x is going to suck at 4x, and even more at 6x. First focal plane reticles are slightly better, and rival a red dot up close, but are too fat for precise shooting. That's why the high end ones all have a separate dot in the second plane and a dedicated reticle in the first. Any reticle that's dialed in for 6-8x is going to completely vanish when you dial out to 1x. And even if you have a dedicated reticle in the first plane, you still have to have a separate illumination or no illumination. They exist, but they're very heavy and very expensive.

What I'm saying is you can get an awesome amazing scope with an amazing reticle, plus an offset RMR, for far less money, and it's going to be lighter and offer more utility all around.

[Warp]

And any reticle that's good for a dot at 1x is going to suck at 4x, and even more at 6x.

False

First focal plane reticles are slightly better, and rival a red dot up close, but are too fat for precise shooting.

False.

Unless you consider a crisp semi-transparent 1 MOA dot too fat

Any reticle that's dialed in for 6-8x is going to completely vanish when you dial out to 1x.

False

What I'm saying is you can get an awesome amazing scope with an amazing reticle, plus an offset RMR, for far less money, and it's going to be lighter and offer more utility all around.

Perhaps so, but that doesn't make any of the prior claims about LPVO's to be universally true.

You should try some good ones, just for your own information/knowledge/experience


What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?

What magnifier are you using for 6X as you previously referenced?

[okie]

False



False.

Unless you consider a crisp semi-transparent 1 MOA dot too fat



False



Perhaps so, but that doesn't make any of the prior claims about LPVO's to be universally true.

You should try some good ones, just for your own information/knowledge/experience


What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?

What magnifier are you using for 6X as you previously referenced?

What do you consider to be the good ones?

[Warp]

What do you consider to be the good ones?

What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?

What LPVO's have you used?

What 6x magnifier were you referring to earlier?

Do you consider a 1 MOA semi-transparent dot too fat for precise work?

[okie]

What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?

What LPVO's have you used?

What 6x magnifier were you referring to earlier?

Do you consider a 1 MOA semi-transparent dot too fat for precise work?

Aaaaand here comes the pissing match...

Like I said, I'm not going there, and I'm not going to start slaughtering sacred cows by dissing somebody's favorite brand. I will just leave it at saying I've sampled some of the good ones and wasn't impressed. It's obvious we have different standards as to what constitutes a usable dot/reticle. If I'm going to zoom in to 6 or 8 x then I want a fine illuminated mildot reticle. If I'm going 1x, I want a nice sized dot I can pick up on easily. That's a tall-and expensive-order to fill in an LPVO.

[Warp]

Aaaaand here comes the pissing match...

Like I said, I'm not going there, and I'm not going to start slaughtering sacred cows by dissing somebody's favorite brand. I will just leave it at saying I've sampled some of the good ones and wasn't impressed. It's obvious we have different standards as to what constitutes a usable dot/reticle. If I'm going to zoom in to 6 or 8 x then I want a fine illuminated mildot reticle. If I'm going 1x, I want a nice sized dot I can pick up on easily. That's a tall-and expensive-order to fill in an LPVO.

Don't make claims if you aren't going to support them.

Since you lack any experience or knowledge about the topic, maybe don't pretend that you do?

You can be not impressed...but making objectively false broad brush statements as you have in this thread is a different matter. Example "There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. " is just plain wrong and shows your lack of experience/knowledge.

What you want exists, you just have a preconceived notion that it doesn't, and clearly haven't tried any of the scopes that you should have.

I'm still wondering what RDS/magnifier you are comparing to and what 6X magnifier you are using, though.

[okie]

Don't make claims if you aren't going to support them.

Since you lack any experience or knowledge about the topic, maybe don't pretend that you do?

You can be not impressed...but making objectively false broad brush statements as you have in this thread is a different matter. Example "There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. " is just plain wrong and shows your lack of experience/knowledge.

What you want exists, you just have a preconceived notion that it doesn't, and clearly haven't tried any of the scopes that you should have.

I'm still wondering what RDS/magnifier you are comparing to and what 6X magnifier you are using, though.

Okay, if it exists, what is it? Because I can think of exactly two, and I like them, but they are insanely expensive.