EFFECTIVENESS OF THE INDIVIDUAL RIFLEMEN IN AN INFANTRY SQUAD

[Spooky1]

I appreciate you posting this, this way I can read the content and learn something from the discussion hear.

[glocktogo]

I just saw that the "taking back the Infantry half kilometer" was in the beginning of that paper. Not sure if this is where that paper came from or this work just uses it but I have a couple issues with it.

1. The overwhelming cause of lack of lethality from rifleman at 500 meter is missing the target.

2. Unless we are going to switch to a ridiculous new battle rifle round a 500 meter hit isn't going to be a hammer unless you hit specific vital spots.

3. I worked with a guy that was a SEAL and tested the 6.8 overseas. He found it no better than 5.56 except he couldn't get easy replacement ammo from outside his supply chain. To quote him "a good hit was a good hit and a bad hot was still a bad hit"


Now to the paper as a whole and the effectiveness of a single rifleman. Well that's really going to depend on which rifleman we are talking about. There are some non shooting mother****ers in an infantry company. There are also guys who are much more likely to engage the enemy early on than others. History is ripe with stories of single Soldiers and Marines doing very heroic things and changing the flow of a battle either by themselves or through actions they took.

Recalling the words attributed to Heraclitus:

For every one hundred men you send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty are nothing but targets. Nine of them are real fighters; we are lucky to have them, they the battle make. Ah, but the one. One of them is a warrior and he will bring the others back.
--Heraclitus, philospher/tactician, around 500 B.C.

[crusader377]

1. The overwhelming cause of lack of lethality from rifleman at 500 meter is missing the target.

2. Unless we are going to switch to a ridiculous new battle rifle round a 500 meter hit isn't going to be a hammer unless you hit specific vital spots.

If people were truly honest with themselves, infantry rifles effective ranges have been higher than the average soldier could utilize their rifles for at least a 100 years. A British Lee-Enfield, Mauser 98, or Springfield M1903 were all capable of effective ranges of 600M to 800M. However, due to training and the relatively primative sights an average soldier could not hit a single man on the battlefield at that range.

Actually the Springfield .45-70 trapdoor or the British Martini-Henry rifle from 150 years ago had an effective range of 400M-500M. Could your average soldier hit an individual target at that range in combat, probably not.

[C-grunt]

If people were truly honest with themselves, infantry rifles effective ranges have been higher than the average soldier could utilize their rifles for at least a 100 years. A British Lee-Enfield, Mauser 98, or Springfield M1903 were all capable of effective ranges of 600M to 800M. However, due to training and the relatively primative sights an average soldier could not hit a single man on the battlefield at that range.

Actually the Springfield .45-70 trapdoor or the British Martini-Henry rifle from 150 years ago had an effective range of 400M-500M. Could your average soldier hit an individual target at that range in combat, probably not.

Not only that, people tend not to just stand around in the open during combat. In 2005 I made the longest shot of my Battalion that deployment at 410 meters. The longest shot our snipers took was something like 375 meters. I was using a SDMR with an ACOG and shooting M262. So the shot itself was pretty easy. But the only reason I was able to make that shot is that my squad was in an overwatch position well away from the rest of our unit. The insurgent was shooting at my unit about 300 meters to his south and I was 400 meters to his northeast. So while he was utilizing cover and concealment from the guys he was engaging, he was basically wide open for me. However after I shot that dude and my team leader started engaging with his M4/Aimpoint, the group of insurgents took cover from us and I never saw them again well enough to make a good shot. After that we just shot into the treeline, bushes, and small canals where we last saw them, hoping to score a few more hits.

In my experience, actually seeing dudes at over 200 meters in combat is hard. I think the adoption of the ACOG and now the 1-6 LPVO as a standard rifle optic has and will improve the riflemans lethality at range vastly more than a change in rifle cartridge.

[crusader377]

Not only that, people tend not to just stand around in the open during combat. In 2005 I made the longest shot of my Battalion that deployment at 410 meters. The longest shot our snipers took was something like 375 meters. I was using a SDMR with an ACOG and shooting M262. So the shot itself was pretty easy. But the only reason I was able to make that shot is that my squad was in an overwatch position well away from the rest of our unit. The insurgent was shooting at my unit about 300 meters to his south and I was 400 meters to his northeast. So while he was utilizing cover and concealment from the guys he was engaging, he was basically wide open for me. However after I shot that dude and my team leader started engaging with his M4/Aimpoint, the group of insurgents took cover from us and I never saw them again well enough to make a good shot. After that we just shot into the treeline, bushes, and small canals where we last saw them, hoping to score a few more hits.

In my experience, actually seeing dudes at over 200 meters in combat is hard. I think the adoption of the ACOG and now the 1-6 LPVO as a standard rifle optic has and will improve the riflemans lethality at range vastly more than a change in rifle cartridge.

This is coming from the perspective of an Artillery Officer although my company FSO time was with a light infantry company in Afghanistan. My thoughts are that your 500M+ targets are much better dealt with by your crew served weapons and your company mortars or other assets at battalion or even brigade level.

[1168]

company mortars.

Check.

[crusader377]

Check.

IMO, one of the most underrated weapons. 60mm mortar has a burst radius of 20M and max range of over 3500M and around 1200-1300M in handheld mode if memory serves. Plus very responsive and very fast on target.

[chamber143]

The whole 556 Vs 30 cal is much like the 9 vs 45. Yeah a 30 cal hit is harder than a 556 in the same location as the 45 is over the 9. Problem with the argument is that Both a 9 and 556 is a good spot are lethal as well. We know that all the logistics and supply chain is built around 556 and that isn’t changing anytime soon. Not to mention so many can’t fire the soft shooting 566 well so a 7.62 is only going to be worse. Not to mention the cost of those rounds would be drastically higher to purchase than the 62 gr we use now. Remember that amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics.

[1168]

IMO, one of the most underrated weapons. 60mm mortar has a burst radius of 20M and max range of over 3500M and around 1200-1300M in handheld mode if memory serves. Plus very responsive and very fast on target.

1,340 in handheld. There is a technique involving a whiz wheel, some math, and drop fire that’ll let you go further, but you risk breaking the baseplate. 500m is charge 1 and easy peasy. I’ve smoked people with charge 2 in handheld. “Just shut up and drop it...I’ll worry about the bubble”.

[crusader377]

1,340 in handheld. There is a technique involving a whiz wheel, some math, and drop fire that’ll let you go further, but you risk breaking the baseplate. 500m is charge 1 and easy peasy. I’ve smoked people with charge 2 in handheld. “Just shut up and drop it...I’ll worry about the bubble”.

Thanks! I got out in late 2003 so my memory was a little off.