US military handgun adoption - then and now.

[CRAMBONE]

There are plenty of articles describing the politicization of the Beretta trials and why they won the M9 contract. No one really wanted it. No one who had to carry it, anyway.

Regarding the 1911, the Marines still carry it. SMUs still have access to it. It ain't going away anytime soon.

Yeah I know there was a lot of political behind the curtain bs with that process.

And I’m not sure the 1911 is used operationally by anyone right now. I know the D-boys and Force Recon used to use them but I THINK even Force quit using them, not sure MARSOC ever used them. And I believe Force were the last hold outs. (In recent years I haven’t seen anyone except Gen Miller carry a 1911.)

[SteyrAUG]

Didn’t know that.

Yep, HK barely squeaked by with their P7M13 (increased to 13 to compete in a high capacity trial). Technically you could uncock, recock and that qualified as a double strike capacity. Only the Navy bought them, but the Navy also bought the SIG package.

Doing this from memory so if something is wrong, somebody will tell me, but as I recall performance between the Sig and Beretta were nearly identical. The Sig was actually cheaper, but the Beretta "package" was cheaper than the Sig "package" so Beretta won the contract.

Also I'm pretty sure the Navy requested a specific "navy model" P7M13 that featured a threaded barrel. This is why the MP5-N (Navy) has a three lug / threaded combo barrel so you can run three lug suppressors and a special threaded suppressor that also fit the P7M13 Navy handgun. Haven't personally seen a suppressor mounted on a P7M13(N) but if they really did use the same suppressor that they used on the MP5-N / MP5k-PDW it would be a really big suppressor for a mid size handgun.

I still recall following the XM9 trials, pretty sure it was Soldier of Fortune, back in 1985 and at the end of the day my father and I bought SIG P-226s and that was my graduation present. I still have his 1985 date code Sig, I killed mine after about 25,000 rounds and SIG swapped it out for a CPO.

[Wake27]

Put your 1911 and Glock next to each other on a table, upside down, on their sights. You might be surprised how close they are in the angle of the front strap. Its easiest to see on a no-groove model, but you can see it with the other gens, also. The hump is what messes with people, and might go partway toward explaining the popularity of the 19x/G45. That and the chonky grip in the Gen 3s. If you have a Gen 4 or 5, you can see what I mean by that by adding the backstraps and seeing if your natural presentation changes. I was actually a little surprised at the effectiveness of those. But even with the backstraps, the Gen 4 still feels less chonky than the Gen 3. Either one simply requires practice, like any gun, and monogamy helps greatly. Aaron Cowan has a video on “Developing Point of Aim with the RDS Handgun” that can be illuminating for iron sights users, also.

Steyr, the M9 only fit hands Largo and up. The 1911 is actually much more friendly to small hands. The M9A1 helped that a bit (USMC). Pistols are, in fact for non-combatants, just as much as for machinegunnners. For either, their main use is to check the block on having a weapon while eating chow and buying dip. I doubt we’ll see much of the 320’s modularity, and after receiving them, I’ve gone from cautiously optimistic to distrustful. At least its lightweight.

I’ve been issued 1911’s, and they weren’t really the best option, despite being maintained by armorers that would know what they are doing. They are heavy and low-cap. And logistics support isn’t as easy as visiting the nearest S4 types and trading some smokes and a shiny coin for a couple mags and a can of ammo when your combo isn’t working right suddenly.

I really liked the M11/P228, and they basically had to pry my rattly example out of my hands when we got G19s. Pretty funny memory, actually.

As to the last question in the OP, I do think that the handguns attempting to get military contracts are much more comparable than in the 80s. There are some AMU types floating around here somewhere that probably know a lot more than me about this topic. I just train with whatever they hand me. It really doesn’t matter very often for wars.

We've already had wide enough issues that a message was put out through at least the two star command, something about the rear sights popping off I think.

[chuckman]

Yeah I know there was a lot of political behind the curtain bs with that process.

And I’m not sure the 1911 is used operationally by anyone right now. I know the D-boys and Force Recon used to use them but I THINK even Force quit using them, not sure MARSOC ever used them. And I believe Force were the last hold outs. (In recent years I haven’t seen anyone except Gen Miller carry a 1911.)

Yeah, we had the MEU(SOC) in recon, replaced by the Kimber CQB when 'they' dissolved recon and stood up MARSOC after Det 1 was a wild success. Those were supplanted by the Colt M45, which recon uses now. MARSOC switched from the M45 to the Glock 19. I loved the MEU(SOC) 1911. It had...character.

From my contacts still in that community, they may be switching to the SIG but have not as yet. I'd like to see them go to Glock, but it won't happen.

[CRAMBONE]

Yeah, we had the MEU(SOC) in recon, replaced by the Kimber CQB when 'they' dissolved recon and stood up MARSOC after Det 1 was a wild success. Those were supplanted by the Colt M45, which recon uses now. MARSOC switched from the M45 to the Glock 19. I loved the MEU(SOC) 1911. It had...character.

From my contacts still in that community, they may be switching to the SIG but have not as yet. I'd like to see them go to Glock, but it won't happen.

That’s funny because all the different dudes from all the different units that I’ve meet or worked with and the one common denominator with all of them is a Glock 9mm, usually a 19. Granted some of the Glocks were more “baller” than others.

[SteyrAUG]

That’s funny because all the different dudes from all the different units that I’ve meet or worked with and the one common denominator with all of them is a Glock 9mm, usually a 19. Granted some of the Glocks were more “baller” than others.

So we make fun of Glocks, because they are Glocks, but honestly if I had to do anything that might involved 5 or more days without maintenance and you added some craptastic environment (rain, sand, mud or all of the above) I would probably pack a Glock 19. I shoot my P226 and P7 a lot better (which makes them obvious CCW candidates) but zombie hunts in the mud and rain aren't bullseye competitions. The only thing Glocks lack is suppressor simplicity.

[1168]

The only thing Glocks lack is suppressor simplicity.

What do you mean?

[gaijin]

We traded one Eurotrash hicap 9 for another.
No one cares.

[SteyrAUG]

What do you mean?

Glocks require a LID and it would be nice if you could buy something functional that wouldn't dwarf the G-19 in size. If anyone made a suppressor about the size of a SOCOM mini for a G19 they'd have a winner. But you'd still need to address issues like tall sights, etc. The G19 might be the perfect size, modern capacity handgun...we just don't have a revolutionary suppressor that meets the same criteria.

About the only benefit of running a Glock suppressed is if you skip the LID it doesn't kick out your brass if you need to do secret squirrel stuff.

[chuckman]

That’s funny because all the different dudes from all the different units that I’ve meet or worked with and the one common denominator with all of them is a Glock 9mm, usually a 19. Granted some of the Glocks were more “baller” than others.

The reason recon will either be Johnny-come-lately for G19 or go to the new issue SIG is because it's still a Corps unit. They still have to go the Big Corps for funding and TO&E equipment. Granted, they do have some other, special-funded things. Maybe they will go to the Glock.