Let's try this again...

[Blinking Dog]

I posted this in "Terminal Ballistics" but nobody seemed interested...perhaps this is a better forum to post it in...

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I did a "test" a while back where I shot two ammo brands into milk jugs filled with water at 7 yards. Then I recovered the bullets to see the deformity. Nothing scientific, just kind of curious. These are .45 self defense loads, one a Hornady TAP and the other Federal "Personal Defense."

I found the result quite interesting, but I'm not sure what to make of it. The TAP bullet peeled back but generally retained its weight. The Federal bullet totally peeled back and the jacket separated.

So the question I have is, which is better? Is it the TAP because it retains its mass and delivers more power? Or is it the Federal because it opens up more and causes a bigger cavity and perhaps more damage?

[Iraqgunz]

PM DocGKR and he will be able to provide you an answer to the best of his knowledge.

[Cagemonkey]

FBI recommends a minimum of 12" of penetration into 10% ballistic gel. and 20" maximum penetration. Remember every human is different in build and wearing different clothing. The variables are huge. For example; skinny, weak guy in a T shirt vs. heavy set, muscular guy in a leather coat. IMHO penetration is more important than expansion. Most self defense ammo is designed to prevent over penetration and risk to bystanders. I find it hard to believe a bullet traveling at 1100 Fps @ the muzzle striking a target @ 15 to 20' distance, deforming and penetrating through a attacker having enough energy to seriously wound or kill any one. I think most of this is legal precaution. Expansion is a good thing as long as it doesn't impede the bullets ability to penetrate vital organs. Rule of thumb is the larger diameter bullet you use, the less dependent you are on expansion. 45 ACP, even with ball ammo, has a proven record. I'm a fan of Dr. Fackler and Peter Kokalis, so this is how I came about my opinion. Also, don't forget shot placement is everything.

[markm]

I could NEVER get those damned XTP bullets to expand at all in bare water jug research. Those things never struck me as being any better than ball ammo.

If you don't like the jacket separation, go with the Speer Gold Dots. Those things expand great, and don't shed the jacket from what I've found.

I used to carry CorBons, but they shed the jacket EVERY TIME i shot them, so I switched to gold dot. Not that jacket shed was the end of the world, but I preferred a bullet that stayed together.

[zippygaloo]

delete

[skyugo]

Why does it matter if a bullet stays together? It's not like you're collecting them to reuse them after you shoot. Please educate me.

mass retention is the key i think.

[markm]

mass retention is the key i think.

Yeah. And the jacket is not that heavy. My opinions are not based in science. But when my .40 corbons would shed the jacket, you were left with what was like a 9mm bullet that continued on thru the target.

I don't want a Sabot pistol bullet.

[ar-junkie]

Which is better you are asking? Who really knows but one thing is for sure, if you took 2 identical twins and shot them both in the chest at normal distance, I would be willing to bet you couldn't tell a difference between the two. I'd bet they would both hit the ground with identical wounds DOA.

Cool test by the way, I always love the "home tests" people do on here because it makes it seen more realistic than the lab results we get from companies or professionals (not saying you are not a professional). Not saying labs results are bad they just get boring compaired to "hey I shot this and this happened" stuff.

Either will do just fine. The reason I personally use these types of ammo are not for more killing power, I do it for less penetration and chance of a bullet going into an innocent bystander. Even though shooting in self defense might be justified, you are still liable for the bullet if it hits your nieghbor, or god forbid, your kids.

[alistaire]

Testing expanding bullets in water gives the wrong results because water is less dense and has less tensile strength than flesh. Bullets that fail to open in water may work perfectly in tissue. Also remember that various species have different tissue densities and skin strength.

[jhs1969]

I have done a ton of this type of testing, I used to use one gallon zip locks staged inline within a home built frame. It gave an expansion test along with a course penetration test and this is a partial reason I too switched to +P Gold Dots.

I just saw an ad for a new Hornaday load, FTX I belive. The hollow cavity is plugged with a flexible material. The ad states that clothing and other material can not plug the cavity and prevent expansion and that the flexible material exerts even pressure on the bullet to give (claimed) 100% expansion regardless of the clothing encountered. This looks like it might be promising, anyone else seen/used it yet?