Studies showing piston Ar's more reliable?

[omegajb]

I have 2 Sig Sauer 516 uppers and a Colt 6920 SOCOM that have run flawlessly for years.

When I first got the Sig I was worried about parts, but there really isn't anything that will break. The piston is heavy duty, the bolt and firing pin is the same as a DI AR and the only thing different is the BCG doesn't have the gas key, just a solid blank.

The only issue I've had with a DI gun is a cheaper upper that didn't have a pinned gas block that moved.

Either way an AR from a quality manufacturer whether or not if it's piston or DI should last for years without issues.



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[utahjeepr]

Not a study, but straight from the mouth of Karl Lewis when asked what advantage his piston guns had over his DI guns.

"Well, the pistons are more expensive to build. I make a little more profit on them."

So there's that.

[C-grunt]

I’ve always just owned DI guns, shot them a ton but never in any harsh environments if you will. I could see the argument for something that be able to run through dirty/harsh environments on an autoloading firearm. The classic scenario I think of when I hear about complaints about DI guns not running when in dirty/harsh environments is the M4 out in the sandbox but I don’t know how well some of those rifles were maintained either but then again I was never there so that’s just a thought. One thing I’m curious about on a piston driven platform since I’ve never owned a piston driven AR is how much carbon buildup actually builds up in the piston and how often that has to be cleaned/maintained?


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Iraq (and I assume Afghanistan as well) were definitely some harsh environments on the guns. But it's not like they were hard to clean. I spent literally a few minutes each week to wipe of the BCG and inside the upper and re-lube. The main problem was a myth, that was Army wide, that CLP attracted dirt and made the gun dirtier. So some guys would run their rifles dry, which is stupid. Keep your dust cover closed, the barrel cap on, and dont strap your rifle to the outside of the truck and the rifle stays pretty clean on the inside. Weapons maintenance in a warzone is important. I can tell you Ive seen plenty of AK47s malfunction because the Iraqi Army had piss poor weapons maintenance.

I think piston ARs can be very good guns if they are designed from the ground up as piston guns. The 416 and the PWS rifles are actually redesigned to make them piston guns. The rifles that just retrofit a piston system on a standard AR15 are usually junk in my experience/opinion.

[turnburglar]

One of my buddies was a T1 type and spent a couple years in iraq with the 416. He said the same thing other's have said; I rarely cleaned it and it ran like a champ every single time. Keep in mind he was using the 10" with a suppressor.

I think a lot of people need to keep in mind when certain things like the 416 came around; what the development was on the current AR platform. It's pretty well documented that the 'shorty AR' wasn't a reliable animal until crane got involved. The US military hasn't ALWAYS had MK18's with DD rails in the inventory. That was an evolutionary thing that took awhile to happen. I think it is absolutely valid to question and weigh each system against one another, it's just important to keep it apples to apples. For example take the modern 416A5 and run that against a DD in similar barrel lengths doing similar tests.


I have always heard that the piston AR shines when you need a gun to do 3 things: Short barrel, suppressed, full auto. Once you stray outside of that very small niche a DI always makes more sense. I dont shoot suppressed but I have tens of thousands of trouble free rounds out of my DI guns at this point. So piston doesn't really do anything I already get done.

[ABNAK]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

I still like Piston for suppression and full auto fire, other than that, I don't see a point.

[Devil's Advocate here] One could make the argument, based on what you said, that suppressed and FA are more "extreme" firing conditions. Therefore why wouldn't you want a system that operated under those more "extreme" conditions? Under near-perfect conditions it should run forever then.

Having made that point, and like it or not, I do believe that DI is not the wave of future small arms design. Adding a piston to an AR is back-engineering and usually doesn't work out. However, designing a piston driven weapon from the ground up is where it's going to be at.

[artoter]

I don't know for sure, but the DI system ran fine for me, in the Marines. My first rifle was the A1, then we went to the A2....would shoot a lot of rounds through them, and other than a quick spray of CLP, we could run quite a few rounds before it would get really sluggish or malfunction.

I have zero experience with a piston driven AR, so I cannot chime in on that side of the discussion, but I was at the range this morning, and my AR ran just fine for a couple hundred rounds. Other than "eating where it poops", I have complete confidence in the DI system. JMHO

[ABNAK]

I don't know for sure, but the DI system ran fine for me, in the Marines. My first rifle was the A1, then we went to the A2....would shoot a lot of rounds through them, and other than a quick spray of CLP, we could run quite a few rounds before it would get really sluggish or malfunction.

I have zero experience with a piston driven AR, so I cannot chime in on that side of the discussion, but I was at the range this morning, and my AR ran just fine for a couple hundred rounds. Other than "eating where it poops", I have complete confidence in the DI system. JMHO

Oh for sure it's pretty damn reliable if properly maintained. It is generally lighter too. I just don't see it as the "wave of the future" in small arms design.

LOL on the M16A1. You're an "old" bastage like me! Had an A1 for my entire 4 years as an Army grunt (see sigline). Of course the 20" rifle-length gas system is the one which the entire weapon was originally designed around, and that pencil-profile A1 barrel made it no heavier than some modern M4A1's. Then you add on the doo-dads commonly carried nowadays and the beauty of the A1 becomes more clear! My A1 clone that I have for old time's sake has a 1:7 twist barrel so I can shoot the better modern ammo.

[JoeBobJoe]

In a shot (7-9 inch) barrel pistol, piston AR's seem more reliable. I prefer DI over Piston, that being said, more AR platforms are a good thing to help improve & innovate all AR systems, DI & Piston.

[Screwball]

I have both systems and while I stick with the pistons being suppressed and short barreled… I have exceptions with both sides.

Piston system was my first AR. Spikes upper with AA kit… installed by Spikes. Had a great 1:8” barrel, but had an issue with the barrel spinning in the extension… Spikes was zero help, but barrel was AA’s, who warrantied it with a 1:7” barrel (AA is good people to do it). Was NJ compliant when I got it, but now is set up for my suppressor that is sitting in jail. It is a heavy setup, but I don’t see any issues other than that.

My truck gun is a 11.5” AA upper, which I got since I figured I was going to suppress it. Had a bad piston rod, which AA replaced (bad heat treatment, looked like it had Peyronie’s Disease inside the upper).

For D/I… my first was a .45 ACP upper from Macon Armory. Really nice setup, especially compared to blowback (I do have a 9mm blowback pistol, and a .22 upper). Eventually want to SBR that. It is cute with the 1.5” gas tube.

After that, I built a PSA pistol as a homage to Heat (11.5” Colt 733). Has a binary trigger, mainly for s***s/giggles and the third position. No issues with that, either the rate of fire or 11.5” barrel. I don’t have shorter than 11.5”… but if I did, I’d likely go piston.

I have another binary lower, which I haven’t got an upper for. Planning on a 20” A4 upper, as I wanted a longer barrel AR, as well as one that can toss a bayonet on.

Last gun was a KE Arms polymer lower, which I made a lightweight setup. Might not be WWSD light, but under 7 pounds. Lightweight barrel, carbine length D/I. Piston would have definitely boosted the weight up past 7 pounds, easily.

[indianalex01]

I have pistons 516’s and MCX and Colt piston rifle. I also have many Colts 6920’s ect. I also have an SOT license so I shoot them all full auto and suppressed. DI on full auto is even better I feel due to a little less recoil (on full auto that matters). Suppressed then piston is better due to gas blowback. I have all sizes in both types. I enjoy both but I would take a DI gun (Colt 6933-EPR) 1st. DI guns aren’t front heavy either like a piston gun. I love the easy clean up of. Piston gun.