MK18 Vs. Geissele Super Duty 10.5

[Wake27]

Hey if you like paying a lot more for an arguably inferior gun, be my guest. Like I keep saying, all I was trying to do was tell the man how to get a premium Mk18 at a good price.

Not a clue what you mean by "early prototypes." If you're talking about the CQBR, it's functionally identical to the factory Mk18s that shipped from Colt (and by extension the ones from DD, at least skin deep). The only thing that ever changed was the rail, and they went through like five versions of three different ones, so take your pick or choose something different. They had some oneoff Vltor rails and stuff running around, so it's not like there's a right or wrong way to accessorize them.

P.S. and no it's not a lot of work. Sheesh, ADCO will do literally all the work for like an extra 50 bucks or something. You can just send them an M4 or 6920 upper and get a Mk18 upper back in the mail two days later.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here for excuses. First it's too old, then it's a prototype (not true, BTW), and now it's too much work! Would absolutely love to know who made you prime decider to determine what's relevant to this thread, especially since you seem to know very little about the platform outside of DD's commercial Mk18 in name only copy. There's more than one way to scramble this egg, and if you would listen instead of deciding for OP what he does and doesn't want to hear you might learn a thing or two.

Well again, OP hasn’t come back so everybody is assuming at this point. I wasn’t overly pleased with my experience with ADCO so wouldn’t use them but chopping a barrel isn’t even on their website. Threading a barrel is for $75, so it’s going to be at least that much. I never mailed an upper without insurance and feel like it’s usually $50ish, so let’s say a conservative $125. That’s a rough estimate for shipping and insurance one way and only includes half the job of a barrel chop so it’ll probably cost more. Also 6920s have a .062 gas port by at least a few reports so it’s likely need to get opened up. That’s also not on ADCO’s website but it costs $110 for them to install an FSB and you have to both remove and install that to open up the gas port so it’d probably be at least that much. That’s $235 at least and doesn’t factor in lead times which have been extended to a few weeks for most services from other smiths for some time. Brownells has a stripped 6921 upper for $569.99 plus the conservative estimate on labor brings it to $804.99. They also have DD MK18 stripped uppers right now for $899.99 and all you’d have to add to get as complete of a product to the colt is an A2 flash hider for $9-13 depending on brand. I’m by no means a DD fanboy but have never heard anyone attempt to argue that they’re inferior to colt. Even if you want to try on the brand, I can’t imagine an argument where the stock 6920/21 handguards would be better than the DD RIS when the price difference is just over $100 aside from pure weight.

The prototype reference was in regards to you talking about colt hanging the formula for a bolt and then you started talking about an extractor fiasco. You never mentioned timeframe but it’s most likely well outside the last few years and probably scope of the convo, which was my point.

You were wrong about how significant the weight difference between the RAS and RIS II are. You’re wrong about the price difference of your method vs a factory DD. You’ve stated that you’re trying to give the OP options when you’re pushing very hard for only one option (yours). You quoted me saying, “There are two characteristics that define the Mk18. The 10.3 inch barrel and the .07 gas port. That's pretty much it.” You also say, “It's also not accurate at all to say that the only thing that matters in a Mk18 is the length and gas port size. What matters most is the bolt.” You were wrong about SOCOM not using DD barrels. You stated many times that anything not following TDP is a “mystery grab bag” when DD and others have been solidly consistent in what they produce. You argue that a commando is “basically the same thing” even though the different effects of 10.3 vs 11.5 barrels are well known.

And, even though mostly irrelevant, you say that I apparently know very little about the platform which is somewhat hilarious because one of my work guns is a MK18 that belongs to USASOC.

Notice how so many people have debated so many of your points? That’s a hint that you’re full of shit.


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[Diz]

I just want to know where the OP went to? If he clarifies in any direction he'll probably get hammered by someone ha ha.

Although it is a very valid point to say you can build a MK-18 type rifle with various commercial components, you cannot discount the "cache" of the guns used by the big boys. There are hordes of fanboys on TOS, who go to ridiculous extremes to build what some guys get issued. So chopping a 6920 n all would not be beyond the pale. Without our OP here to clarify, we're all just speculatin'.

So I would say that if you want a MK-18-type rifle, there are a lot of choices. But if you want to build a Crane/NSW MK-18, you probably need some Colt goodness. The choice is yours.

[okie]

Well again, OP hasn’t come back so everybody is assuming at this point. I wasn’t overly pleased with my experience with ADCO so wouldn’t use them but chopping a barrel isn’t even on their website. Threading a barrel is for $75, so it’s going to be at least that much. I never mailed an upper without insurance and feel like it’s usually $50ish, so let’s say a conservative $125. That’s a rough estimate for shipping and insurance one way and only includes half the job of a barrel chop so it’ll probably cost more. Also 6920s have a .062 gas port by at least a few reports so it’s likely need to get opened up. That’s also not on ADCO’s website but it costs $110 for them to install an FSB and you have to both remove and install that to open up the gas port so it’d probably be at least that much. That’s $235 at least and doesn’t factor in lead times which have been extended to a few weeks for most services from other smiths for some time. Brownells has a stripped 6921 upper for $569.99 plus the conservative estimate on labor brings it to $804.99. They also have DD MK18 stripped uppers right now for $899.99 and all you’d have to add to get as complete of a product to the colt is an A2 flash hider for $9-13 depending on brand. I’m by no means a DD fanboy but have never heard anyone attempt to argue that they’re inferior to colt. Even if you want to try on the brand, I can’t imagine an argument where the stock 6920/21 handguards would be better than the DD RIS when the price difference is just over $100 aside from pure weight.

The prototype reference was in regards to you talking about colt hanging the formula for a bolt and then you started talking about an extractor fiasco. You never mentioned timeframe but it’s most likely well outside the last few years and probably scope of the convo, which was my point.

You were wrong about how significant the weight difference between the RAS and RIS II are. You’re wrong about the price difference of your method vs a factory DD. You’ve stated that you’re trying to give the OP options when you’re pushing very hard for only one option (yours). You quoted me saying, “There are two characteristics that define the Mk18. The 10.3 inch barrel and the .07 gas port. That's pretty much it.” You also say, “It's also not accurate at all to say that the only thing that matters in a Mk18 is the length and gas port size. What matters most is the bolt.” You were wrong about SOCOM not using DD barrels. You stated many times that anything not following TDP is a “mystery grab bag” when DD and others have been solidly consistent in what they produce. You argue that a commando is “basically the same thing” even though the different effects of 10.3 vs 11.5 barrels are well known.

And, even though mostly irrelevant, you say that I apparently know very little about the platform which is somewhat hilarious because one of my work guns is a MK18 that belongs to USASOC.

Notice how so many people have debated so many of your points? That’s a hint that you’re full of shit.


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The last time I did this like two years ago they charged 75 flat to convert a 6920 barrel to Crane spec, which includes the chop, thread, and port resize. I believe that also included return shipping. Shipping it to them costs about 20 dollars with insurance. Maybe 25 these days.

So we have 2010 Colt for 7-9 hundred, barrel chop for 100, and handguard of OP's choice for 2-3 hundred. For a grand total of 1000-1300 for the whole rifle.

Vs. 1300 just for the DD upper. Or 2k for the complete rifle, along with a year wait for the Form 4.

And BTW, ADCO will open to whatever port size you want. 0.07 is spec, but you can leave the factory size or even open it up larger for reasons apparently only DD understands. Yea, I looked that up, they actually went bigger than Crane, which is a huge step backwards. The only reason they would do that is to run .223 steel, which just goes to show why you want the real thing vs. a commercial copy. So yea, that's the game changing upgrade you speak so highly of, that apparently makes the DD the future, while making all legacy Mk18s obsolete.

But what do I know, I'm just a dude who likes 20 year old guns.

[Wake27]

The last time I did this like two years ago they charged 75 flat to convert a 6920 barrel to Crane spec, which includes the chop, thread, and port resize. I believe that also included return shipping. Shipping it to them costs about 20 dollars with insurance. Maybe 25 these days.

So we have 2010 Colt for 7-9 hundred, barrel chop for 100, and handguard of OP's choice for 2-3 hundred. For a grand total of 1000-1300 for the whole rifle.

Vs. 1300 just for the DD upper. Or 2k for the complete rifle, along with a year wait for the Form 4.

And BTW, ADCO will open to whatever port size you want. 0.07 is spec, but you can leave the factory size or even open it up larger for reasons apparently only DD understands. Yea, I looked that up, they actually went bigger than Crane, which is a huge step backwards. The only reason they would do that is to run .223 steel, which just goes to show why you want the real thing vs. a commercial copy. So yea, that's the game changing upgrade you speak so highly of, that apparently makes the DD the future, while making all legacy Mk18s obsolete.

But what do I know, I'm just a dude who likes 20 year old guns.

This is your problem. I never said DD had a game changing upgrade. I just said they were available without the hassle that you're recommending. But maybe bring your research out of the past just like your knowledge base because it has been well established that DD reduced their grossly overgassed .08whatever barrels down to .070 a few years ago. The fact that you're quoting how much you paid for a Colt over a decade ago proves my point because it is completely irrelevant.

[okie]

I just want to know where the OP went to? If he clarifies in any direction he'll probably get hammered by someone ha ha.

Although it is a very valid point to say you can build a MK-18 type rifle with various commercial components, you cannot discount the "cache" of the guns used by the big boys. There are hordes of fanboys on TOS, who go to ridiculous extremes to build what some guys get issued. So chopping a 6920 n all would not be beyond the pale. Without our OP here to clarify, we're all just speculatin'.

So I would say that if you want a MK-18-type rifle, there are a lot of choices. But if you want to build a Crane/NSW MK-18, you probably need some Colt goodness. The choice is yours.

Just to clarify, I'm not approaching this from any clone perspective. I just rebuild my 6920s to Crane spec and then outfit them however I want. I run laser aimers so the KAC drop in series rails just so happen to be the best bang for me. If I weren't running laser aimers I would opt for keeping the original CAR handguards with the double heat shields. I also outfit mine with lots of non correct accessories. And some correct ones, too. Like I'm a big fan of the Colt ambi safeties. I've tried other ambi safeties and they've failed me. The screws come loose, and they're often so mushy the safety will get brushed off by accident just carrying it slung. The Colt ambi uses a nice big screw, and it has a very positive detent that's not going to accidentally get brushed off.

Also prefer a more vertical grip than the usual suspects on "clone correct" Mk18s. I do opt for the original Crane stock though, which is available now through Brownells from B5.

I've also just discovered the Trex light mount for use with suppressors, and that works extremely well on the Mk18 sized guns. And I use a Unity dual lead remote to simultaneously fire both the laser and the light at the same time. Obviously something no one in the military has. It's nice because you can either fire the vis laser with the light on white, or fire the IR laser only, with the illuminator turned off, but the light turned to IR. Makes for a very nice spill and very high contrast within about 100 yards.

I also pay no attention to roll marks on the lowers. My favorite that I have is one that was originally intended for Mexico, and it has the Mexican DOD roll mark on the side opposite the Colt roll mark. Very far from clone correct, but definitely very cool in its own right.

Now something that is worth mentioning regarding the clone thing, even if you don't intend to make one, the mere potential for cloning is going to be valuable going into the future. Even if Colt were to start releasing those properly marked parts again, they would likely be marked differently. Lasers have taken over, along with QR codes, so if Colt did get another government contract and leaked the overflow to us like during the WOT, those most likely would not be applicable to WOT clones. So that super anal retentive cloner who must have all things cosmetically identical to one in a photo, he's still going to be wanting the 2010 era ones because they had the exact same markings as the ones going overseas. So not only do you have the whole TDP, and the savings over comparable guns, but you also have a high degree of collectability, and an almost guarantee that they're only going to get rarer going into the future.

Even non clone correct marks can be collectible too though. Obviously you have the government marked ones that go for big bucks. The Mexico marked one I mentioned I paid 750 for. I bought several of them at that time and sold one a few years later for several times what I had paid for it. Then the one I kept, I ended up selling the Spanish language accessory pack for like 250 bucks on GB. So my total investment on that one ended up being somewhere around 500.

[okie]

This is your problem. I never said DD had a game changing upgrade. I just said they were available without the hassle that you're recommending. But maybe bring your research out of the past just like your knowledge base because it has been well established that DD reduced their grossly overgassed .08whatever barrels down to .070 a few years ago. The fact that you're quoting how much you paid for a Colt over a decade ago proves my point because it is completely irrelevant.

You said:

Yeah, it doesn’t say he’s looking for a vintage MK18. Why don’t we at least stick to the last five years? DD’s gas port changed even more recently than that I think which is probably the most significant thing to happen within this context so the debate on Colt’s QA procedures or an extractor change well over a decade ago really doesn’t matter.

So the DD is more advanced than a "vintage" Colt because they reduced their port size to what Crane spec'd 20 years ago??? Man, you can't decide if you're coming or going. First you accuse me of being in the past, and now you're extoling the virtues of the ostensibly more modern DD because they changed their gun to be identical to the original you claim is too outdated to be worth mentioning?

And no, I'm not talking about a gun I bought a decade ago. Like I've said about ten times, you can still get 2010 era 6920s for very good prices on local forums. I paid 700 for one just a few months ago.

P.S. And oh BTW, now that you mention it, what springs do come in the DDs? Because the Colts have the updated extractor and ejector springs, that are actually pretty revolutionary upgrades. The DD I have no idea. I don't even know if they say.

[cosmo223]

Don't really want to get sucked into this p*ssing contest, but am curious how a chopped Colt would compare to a DD "MK18". I recently purchased a DD MK18 stripped upper from Brownells for $850 and free shipping. Added a "blemished" Toolcraft bolt carrier group I think I paid $79 and an extra charging handle and flash hider I already had lying around. (Will probably eventually put a Dead Air muzzle device on it, since I have a Sandman S in jail.) With DD I'm getting a very solid rail and an excellent barrel that is both accurate and long lasting. How would a chopped Colt compare to this? Is the barrel comparable? How about the rail?

To be clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight. My assumption is that both the DD rail and barrel are superior, but I'm willing to be educated on this point if I'm wrong. And what I like about the DD/Brownells combo is I can customize my charging handle, bolt carrier, FH/muzzle brake if I'm inclined to do so.

[okie]

Don't really want to get sucked into this p*ssing contest, but am curious how a chopped Colt would compare to a DD "MK18". I recently purchased a DD MK18 stripped upper from Brownells for $850 and free shipping. Added a "blemished" Toolcraft bolt carrier group I think I paid $79 and an extra charging handle and flash hider I already had lying around. (Will probably eventually put a Dead Air muzzle device on it, since I have a Sandman S in jail.) With DD I'm getting a very solid rail and an excellent barrel that is both accurate and long lasting. How would a chopped Colt compare to this? Is the barrel comparable? How about the rail?

To be clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight. My assumption is that both the DD rail and barrel are superior, but I'm willing to be educated on this point if I'm wrong. And what I like about the DD/Brownells combo is I can customize my charging handle, bolt carrier, FH/muzzle brake if I'm inclined to do so.

Colt didn't ship many Mk18 uppers with DD rails. If you happen to find one, someone's going to want a pretty penny for it. But obviously you can find those used on reddit all day long for between two and four hundred dollars. Were I going to use a free float rail, I would probably do something different.

In terms of the barrels, they're probably close enough to not be of any consequence. Colt is ahead of the curve when it comes to chrome lining. They just do a really nice and consistent lining that's pretty exceptional for durability and accuracy. The superiority of CHF barrels is marketing garbage. It's a cheap way of making very good, consistent barrels, but the technology doesn't have the same potential for accuracy as a good button rifled barrel. When they say CHF barrels are more accurate than button rifled, they're talking about lesser quality ones. So there's nothing wrong with a good quality button rifled barrel, which Colt is, and it might even have an edge. But at the end of the day, tomato, tomaato.

You might check what springs came in the Toolcraft. They might use something good like Springco, or they might just be generic AR springs. If generic, probably worth upgrading to either the Colt or the Springco ones. I also really like the McFarland gas rings. In my experience, they are more durable.

On the CH, the real Mk18s were pretty much all issued with PRI gas busters. Obviously the 6920s just come with the standard M4 charging handle. I've not owned a PRI personally so I can't say, but I just put silicone on my milspec ones and that seems to work. I don't like charging handles with latches that stick out, so if the silicone keeps the gas out of my eyes then that's a win win far as I'm concerned, especially since it doesn't cost me anything.

But yea, if you already have the DD then I certainly wouldn't see any point in changing to something else. Just check that BCG to see what gen springs are in it and upgrade if necessary.

[Wake27]

You said:



So the DD is more advanced than a "vintage" Colt because they reduced their port size to what Crane spec'd 20 years ago??? Man, you can't decide if you're coming or going. First you accuse me of being in the past, and now you're extoling the virtues of the ostensibly more modern DD because they changed their gun to be identical to the original you claim is too outdated to be worth mentioning?

And no, I'm not talking about a gun I bought a decade ago. Like I've said about ten times, you can still get 2010 era 6920s for very good prices on local forums. I paid 700 for one just a few months ago.

P.S. And oh BTW, now that you mention it, what springs do come in the DDs? Because the Colts have the updated extractor and ejector springs, that are actually pretty revolutionary upgrades. The DD I have no idea. I don't even know if they say.

Yeah I'm done with this.

[Wake27]

Don't really want to get sucked into this p*ssing contest, but am curious how a chopped Colt would compare to a DD "MK18". I recently purchased a DD MK18 stripped upper from Brownells for $850 and free shipping. Added a "blemished" Toolcraft bolt carrier group I think I paid $79 and an extra charging handle and flash hider I already had lying around. (Will probably eventually put a Dead Air muzzle device on it, since I have a Sandman S in jail.) With DD I'm getting a very solid rail and an excellent barrel that is both accurate and long lasting. How would a chopped Colt compare to this? Is the barrel comparable? How about the rail?

To be clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight. My assumption is that both the DD rail and barrel are superior, but I'm willing to be educated on this point if I'm wrong. And what I like about the DD/Brownells combo is I can customize my charging handle, bolt carrier, FH/muzzle brake if I'm inclined to do so.

I also don't think it'd really make a difference, aside from the rail. Pre-gas port change from DD, Colt all day long. Currently, I think the DD is a better value and easier buy but aside from the RIS II, I bet most people wouldn't be able to differentiate performance.