MK18 Vs. Geissele Super Duty 10.5

[okie]

I've heard more than a couple horror stories about ADCO, so hard pass (particularly Duke's thread over on Lightfighter). As for other companies skipping on QC, please provide evidence of that. And please show why the TDP are the best possible requirements; my understanding is that it is merely a set of requirements as specified, there's nothing there that proves it's better than whatever standards the commercial market comes up with (see Augee's TDP/fried chicken analogy: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/MI...5/118-645480/?). And millions of rifles from Colt? AFAIK, there's been about 500k M4s manufactured... many of which aren't even Colt made, but FN. And this idea of the military use means that the gun is great is ludicrous. Just look at their refusal to update the M9 and SR-25 specifically because they already have a TDP, and by God, they're going to stick with it.

As for a Colt cut down being less than 1000 USD out the door, sure, if you want to do a bone-stock rifle. But most folks will want to also throw on a free-float handguard, new muzzle device, new grip, new stock, maybe new trigger. All of a sudden, you've just dropped another couple hundred USD on the thing, when you could have just as easily bought something commercially that's going to serve you just as well (BCM, Sionics, SoLGW, etc.).

An assembler/manufacturer refusing to tell you about how they assemble the guns sucks... but it's also the business. You have the same issue with gas ports and the like. Doesn't mean that a company is cutting corners simply because they don't disclose their practices and specs.

Colt makes good guns, and makes them consistently, for a decent price. No argument there. But to put them on this pedestal in which there is nothing else out there like them at their price point, and possibly at any price point? Ridiculous.

It pretty much always does. Again, anything not made to TDP under contract is a mystery grab bag. There's zero transparency, and the market demands zero accountability because these guns simply do not get shot.

The number of AR type rifles Colt has supplied to the government over the last several decades numbers in the millions, and all of them were shot out many times over and then sold to foreign governments after that normally. And many of those have even made their way back to us in the form of parts kits. And they get direct feedback from the government that's putting tens of millions of rounds downrange, and that's the feedback that's led to the development of the TDP over the years.

As for the cost, you can pick up an LE6920 for like 7-9 hundred, chop the barrel for 75, and then put a DD rail on it for a few hundred more. They're all over the forums used for like two to three hundred. So you have the real deal for right at a grand, vs. paying over 2k for what amounts to a commercial clone that doesn't come with any disclosures or promises regarding quality or quality control. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Defaultmp3]

It pretty much always does. Again, anything not made to TDP under contract is a mystery grab bag. There's zero transparency, and the market demands zero accountability because these guns simply do not get shot.

The market accounts zero accountability? I strongly disagree with that assertion. Plenty of companies have made their reputation specifically because they have time and again shown that their guns can operate will under high round counts. This obviously does not occur often, but it nevertheless does consistently; the various fleet loaner guns that instructors like Pat Rogers or Paul Howe provide are pretty good evidence of that. Beyond that... you can't even prove that Colt utilizes the procedures and specs from the TDP for their civilian line. They could just as easily be cutting corners there.

The number of AR type rifles Colt has supplied to the government over the last several decades numbers in the millions, and all of them were shot out many times over and then sold to foreign governments after that normally. And many of those have even made their way back to us in the form of parts kits. And they get direct feedback from the government that's putting tens of millions of rounds downrange, and that's the feedback that's led to the development of the TDP over the years.

And that feedback is suppose to help the TDP... how? I'm not exactly confident in the feedback that drive the TDP, whether to its validity (this would be feedback from institutions that believed for decades that overlubing was terrible for the gun, after all), and beyond that whether such feedback ever gets implemented. As I had previously noted, TDPs often take forever to incorporate any meaningful change, if at all.

As for the cost, you can pick up an LE6920 for like 7-9 hundred, chop the barrel for 75, and then put a DD rail on it for a few hundred more. They're all over the forums used for like two to three hundred. So you have the real deal for right at a grand, vs. paying over 2k for what amounts to a commercial clone that doesn't come with any disclosures or promises regarding quality or quality control. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

There are plenty of 10.3"/11.5" guns out there that aren't 2k USD that have a great reputation. So while I do see it being pretty cut and dried, I don't see the Colt cut down solution being it. Even apples to apples, the Daniel Defense MK18 versus a Colt cutdown with a DD RIS II installed, there are still noticeable differences, such as the CHF barrel and furniture choices. And I'll also note that used 6920s in this market aren't being found for 700 to 900 USD, either.

[HKGuns]

The thread is about DD and Geissele, not Colt men.

[grizzman]

The thread is about DD and Geissele, not Colt men.

I don’t know what’s worse, Colt haters or fanboys.

[MadAngler1]

I'm undecided upon the two. Im leaning toward the MK18 based on the proven platform, but that Geissele has some really nice features. I'm just a little nervous that the Geissele is still the new kid on the block and hasnt been "proven" yet. All indications and initial reports are looking good though. I'll be running this platform suppressed about 75% of the time. I do like the tank quad rail that the MK18 offers, but that MLOK is growing on me. Any initial input before I make the purchase this week?

Neither one. Go with a Geissele 11.5” upper. I bought the pistol and SBRed it. Runs flawlessly with my Surefire SOCOM RC2. Very nice rifle. The 11.5” barrel just runs better suppressed than any 10” set up I’ve tried.

[Defaultmp3]

Neither one. Go with a Geissele 11.5” upper. I bought the pistol and SBRed it. Runs flawlessly with my Surefire SOCOM RC2. Very nice rifle. The 11.5” barrel just runs better suppressed than any 10” set up I’ve tried.

Once you step up to 11.5", though, you can still compare Daniel Defense with Geissele, but you also get way more options, like BCM, Sionics, KAC, etc.

[okie]

The market accounts zero accountability? I strongly disagree with that assertion. Plenty of companies have made their reputation specifically because they have time and again shown that their guns can operate will under high round counts. This obviously does not occur often, but it nevertheless does consistently; the various fleet loaner guns that instructors like Pat Rogers or Paul Howe provide are pretty good evidence of that. Beyond that... you can't even prove that Colt utilizes the procedures and specs from the TDP for their civilian line. They could just as easily be cutting corners there.

And that feedback is suppose to help the TDP... how? I'm not exactly confident in the feedback that drive the TDP, whether to its validity (this would be feedback from institutions that believed for decades that overlubing was terrible for the gun, after all), and beyond that whether such feedback ever gets implemented. As I had previously noted, TDPs often take forever to incorporate any meaningful change, if at all.

There are plenty of 10.3"/11.5" guns out there that aren't 2k USD that have a great reputation. So while I do see it being pretty cut and dried, I don't see the Colt cut down solution being it. Even apples to apples, the Daniel Defense MK18 versus a Colt cutdown with a DD RIS II installed, there are still noticeable differences, such as the CHF barrel and furniture choices. And I'll also note that used 6920s in this market aren't being found for 700 to 900 USD, either.

There's nothing magical about CHF barrels. It's a very economic method of turning out good quality barrels, but they're nothing special in and of themselves. Colt's button rifled barrels consistently outlast and outshoot CHF barrels. Plus they are the absolute masters of chrome lining.

As for the furniture, if that's your thing, I guess. Personally I hate it, especially compared to the SOPMOD and Magpul options, but if someone really likes it then I guess that would be a good personal reason to choose a DD. Although I think you could make the argument that you could probably buy some used DD furniture on a forum somewhere if you really liked it that much, and not have to pay 2k for a rifle just because you like the furniture.

I've been buying 2010 era Colts throughout the pandemic, and I've not paid any extortionist prices for them. I did splurge on a NIB Commando upper that I paid like a grand for, and I thought that was pretty high. But as far as plain jane 6920s, haven't even come anywhere near a grand for complete rifles. Just because you see something listed for crazy prices on GB doesn't mean that's what local prices are supporting. That one I was telling you about for 700 I bought at the height of the craziness.

Ya'll can do what you want, I'm just telling the dude how to get a bonafide CQBR/Mk18 for not much more than a DPMS or something. If you think you can get a rifle anywhere near that quality for anywhere near that price I would sure be all ears.

The thread is about DD and Geissele, not Colt men.

OP asked about Mk18s. The original Mk18s were cut down Colt M4 uppers, and the next several generations of factory Mk18s were also Colt. I'm unaware of any actual Mk18 in service that wasn't either a Colt modified by Crane, or built in house by Colt. I completely fail to see how this thread has anything to do with DD, much less exclusively them, in terms of the Mk18. All they did was take the name. As far as I know, all generations of Mk18s only used the rail and that was the sole DD part on the whole rifle. And that was only the mod versions. Most of them had one of several KAC rails, and I still contend that the original RAS is by far the best. Scarcely heavier than the plastic CAR handguards and hold zero better than any free float, despite those being about four times heavier. And the URG did not do favorably in terms of holding zero. Fine if you want it for looks or clone points, but if you're actually going to put a laser aimer on it you want the KAC hands down.

[HKGuns]

There's nothing magical about CHF barrels. It's a very economic method of turning out good quality barrels, but they're nothing special in and of themselves. Colt's button rifled barrels consistently outlast and outshoot CHF barrels. Plus they are the absolute masters of chrome lining.

As for the furniture, if that's your thing, I guess. Personally I hate it, especially compared to the SOPMOD and Magpul options, but if someone really likes it then I guess that would be a good personal reason to choose a DD. Although I think you could make the argument that you could probably buy some used DD furniture on a forum somewhere if you really liked it that much, and not have to pay 2k for a rifle just because you like the furniture.

I've been buying 2010 era Colts throughout the pandemic, and I've not paid any extortionist prices for them. I did splurge on a NIB Commando upper that I paid like a grand for, and I thought that was pretty high. But as far as plain jane 6920s, haven't even come anywhere near a grand for complete rifles. Just because you see something listed for crazy prices on GB doesn't mean that's what local prices are supporting. That one I was telling you about for 700 I bought at the height of the craziness.

Ya'll can do what you want, I'm just telling the dude how to get a bonafide CQBR/Mk18 for not much more than a DPMS or something. If you think you can get a rifle anywhere near that quality for anywhere near that price I would sure be all ears.



OP asked about Mk18s. The original Mk18s were cut down Colt M4 uppers, and the next several generations of factory Mk18s were also Colt. I'm unaware of any actual Mk18 in service that wasn't either a Colt modified by Crane, or built in house by Colt. I completely fail to see how this thread has anything to do with DD, much less exclusively them, in terms of the Mk18. All they did was take the name. As far as I know, all generations of Mk18s only used the rail and that was the sole DD part on the whole rifle. And that was only the mod versions. Most of them had one of several KAC rails, and I still contend that the original RAS is by far the best. Scarcely heavier than the plastic CAR handguards and hold zero better than any free float, despite those being about four times heavier. And the URG did not do favorably in terms of holding zero. Fine if you want it for looks or clone points, but if you're actually going to put a laser aimer on it you want the KAC hands down.

While true, I’m not aware of a Colt MK18 offering. But it probably doesn’t matter as the dude hasn’t been back since posting.

Safe to assume he meant DD MK18.

I am not a Colt hater btw…….

[scooter22]

There's nothing magical about CHF barrels. It's a very economic method of turning out good quality barrels, but they're nothing special in and of themselves. Colt's button rifled barrels consistently outlast and outshoot CHF barrels. Plus they are the absolute masters of chrome lining.

As for the furniture, if that's your thing, I guess. Personally I hate it, especially compared to the SOPMOD and Magpul options, but if someone really likes it then I guess that would be a good personal reason to choose a DD. Although I think you could make the argument that you could probably buy some used DD furniture on a forum somewhere if you really liked it that much, and not have to pay 2k for a rifle just because you like the furniture.

I've been buying 2010 era Colts throughout the pandemic, and I've not paid any extortionist prices for them. I did splurge on a NIB Commando upper that I paid like a grand for, and I thought that was pretty high. But as far as plain jane 6920s, haven't even come anywhere near a grand for complete rifles. Just because you see something listed for crazy prices on GB doesn't mean that's what local prices are supporting. That one I was telling you about for 700 I bought at the height of the craziness.

Ya'll can do what you want, I'm just telling the dude how to get a bonafide CQBR/Mk18 for not much more than a DPMS or something. If you think you can get a rifle anywhere near that quality for anywhere near that price I would sure be all ears.



OP asked about Mk18s. The original Mk18s were cut down Colt M4 uppers, and the next several generations of factory Mk18s were also Colt. I'm unaware of any actual Mk18 in service that wasn't either a Colt modified by Crane, or built in house by Colt. I completely fail to see how this thread has anything to do with DD, much less exclusively them, in terms of the Mk18. All they did was take the name. As far as I know, all generations of Mk18s only used the rail and that was the sole DD part on the whole rifle. And that was only the mod versions. Most of them had one of several KAC rails, and I still contend that the original RAS is by far the best. Scarcely heavier than the plastic CAR handguards and hold zero better than any free float, despite those being about four times heavier. And the URG did not do favorably in terms of holding zero. Fine if you want it for looks or clone points, but if you're actually going to put a laser aimer on it you want the KAC hands down.

Are you suggesting that a KAC RAS holds zero (for an IR laser) better than a DD RISII?

[okie]

While true, I’m not aware of a Colt MK18 offering. But it probably doesn’t matter as the dude hasn’t been back since posting.

Safe to assume he meant DD MK18.

I am not a Colt hater btw…….

I don't see how it's safe to assume that. Colt is the only manufacturer to ever sell bonafide Mk18 uppers to civilians. Not sure where people get off acting like DD invented or owns the Mk18 or whatever. Like I said, they just took the name for their commercially available copy that's loosely based on the original.

However, you don't have to pay bonafide prices for a Mk18 upper. All you do is chop a 2010 era Colt upper, and that is going to be 100% indistinguishable from the original CQBR upper (aka Mk18). You could even buy a pre ban M16A1 lower and make a genuine 100% Navy Mk18 clone. Like if you snuck that into a Navy arms room they would lose their minds trying to figure out why the serial number wasn't in their records.