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Thread: Night Vision - Help me proof out my 1st NV set up.

  1. #1
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    Night Vision - Help me proof out my 1st NV set up.

    Hello,

    Looking to get a good middle of the road set up. I am not LE or Mil, just a regular guy. Will likely be see the most use for hiking / exploring at night, along with some training. I do know a few others with NV but have not been about to hook up at night to test out anything in person. I have learned enough from my time here on M4C to post before you buy as posting afterwards doesn't really help all that much.

    Here is what I am looking at and will try to give a short summery as to why I am leaning towards each item. Please let me know if any reasoning I am giving is flawed, not accurate or just dumb.


    Reasoning for each Item:
    -PVS-14, When I was first looking I was leaning towards the Photonis Echo but after watching a few vids of side by side comparisons (Nightwalker has great vids) his thoughts were that when it gets real dark these are still Gen 2 devices and start to struggle. Also a friend said I should really be allocating a good part of my NV budget towards the NVD as that really is the most important part.

    -Helmet, The two I was most interested were the Ops-Core Bump and Team Wendy Bump. Most reviews point towards the TW LTP Bump being the most comfortable. I am not sure what the preference is between the 2.0 and the 3.0 and if the advantages of the 3.0 are worth getting. The price I found is for the 2.0 and that would change a bit if I opted for the other.

    -Mount, I had originally wanted to get a Wilcox G24 as that seems like one of the better mounts but because of that the price is reflected. To get away from having to invest in an expensive Mount and J-Arm I as briefly thinking of going with the G11 and the standard J-arm. After a discussion with a friend (allocating more money towards the NVD) I went to looking at the Rhino II. Getting the Rhino II with the updated Dovetail Adapter and Noisefighter J-arm seems like a good compromise. This uses a dovetail over the horn type interface which may allow more flexibility with updating in the future along with allowing it to stow better than the original Rhino II.

    -Laser/Illumiator, I have reviewed vids on many units comparing side by side. While bulky the DBAL-D2 seems to have a good IR-laser (for civilian legal) and a better illuminator compared to other civilian legal laser based one. Seems all the Civ legal DBALs are pretty close. I did see a review on the the Holosun LS321, and as you got further out the illumitator could not keep up to the DBAL-I2. When Compared to the D2 most of the illuminators did not fill in as consistent across the beam, nor did they have the spill the D2 has more adjustability.

    -J-Arm, Pretty much answered this under the mount section but please let me knwo if I'm off base with this.


    Mostly I am looking to see if I have over looked anything or my logic is flawed with my above selection. I know once you get into acceptable quality equipment some of decision making starts to be user preference.


    Thanks for any and all advice.

  2. #2
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    Good on you for wanting to get into the NV game... I recently purchased a PVS-14 (Photonis ECHO WP) through Robert at JRH Enterprises, and a DBAL-A3 laser. I have spent time under green phos/GEN3 tubes both in the Marine Corps and in civilian LE. While your info on the ECHO tube struggling in near dark/zero light conditions may have some validity...I think those assertions are a tad over-inflated. I have had my hands on the ECHO tube for the better part of two months... and consistently wear it at night, walking around the rural trails near my house, and doing a fair bit of night-time golf cart driving... I have seen two moon cycles now, and have operated the tube in no-moon/starlight conditions and do not feel hampered in the least bit by its performance. I have noticed that I mistakingly ran the gain too high, even on very dark nights. By backing off the gain, I had more clarity and was able to "see" into shadowy areas. The FOM rate on my tube is 1999 and offers an extremely clear image. You won't go wrong with this tube... seriously... its the best deal on the market for a high-performing WP NVG that you can get right now, without an extreme wait.

    I would definitely spend the money on the G11 or G24 mount (along with the Wilcox J ARM). The standard Rhino mount and J Arm have a lot of "play", which causes your PVS-14 to sway and move... an unfortunate feature that drove me nuts when I was deployed with my issued NVG optic.

    I went with the DBAL A3 because the D2 is just plain massive. I like the smaller foot print of the A3 and its adjustable illuminator. I don't feel hamstrung with the lower power illuminator, and can easily illuminate targets and dark spaces 150-200 meters away. That is more than adequate for target ID and realistic engagements at night. Another interesting note about the D2, the illuminator gives off a very bright red glow, which can easily be seen from the front of the muzzle. A consideration to be had if you intend on utilizing this laser for personal defense.

    Robert spent a good amount of time (even on a Sunday) to answer my questions regarding the ECHO. His professionalism and expertise was more than enough to warrant my business, and I will continue to do so!
    EATADIK.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric0311 View Post
    Good on you for wanting to get into the NV game... I recently purchased a PVS-14 (Photonis ECHO WP) through Robert at JRH Enterprises, and a DBAL-A3 laser. I have spent time under green phos/GEN3 tubes both in the Marine Corps and in civilian LE. While your info on the ECHO tube struggling in near dark/zero light conditions may have some validity...I think those assertions are a tad over-inflated. I have had my hands on the ECHO tube for the better part of two months... and consistently wear it at night, walking around the rural trails near my house, and doing a fair bit of night-time golf cart driving... I have seen two moon cycles now, and have operated the tube in no-moon/starlight conditions and do not feel hampered in the least bit by its performance. I have noticed that I mistakingly ran the gain too high, even on very dark nights. By backing off the gain, I had more clarity and was able to "see" into shadowy areas. The FOM rate on my tube is 1999 and offers an extremely clear image. You won't go wrong with this tube... seriously... its the best deal on the market for a high-performing WP NVG that you can get right now, without an extreme wait.

    I would definitely spend the money on the G11 or G24 mount (along with the Wilcox J ARM). The standard Rhino mount and J Arm have a lot of "play", which causes your PVS-14 to sway and move... an unfortunate feature that drove me nuts when I was deployed with my issued NVG optic.

    I went with the DBAL A3 because the D2 is just plain massive. I like the smaller foot print of the A3 and its adjustable illuminator. I don't feel hamstrung with the lower power illuminator, and can easily illuminate targets and dark spaces 150-200 meters away. That is more than adequate for target ID and realistic engagements at night. Another interesting note about the D2, the illuminator gives off a very bright red glow, which can easily be seen from the front of the muzzle. A consideration to be had if you intend on utilizing this laser for personal defense.

    Robert spent a good amount of time (even on a Sunday) to answer my questions regarding the ECHO. His professionalism and expertise was more than enough to warrant my business, and I will continue to do so!
    Thanks for your business and the nice words.

    I like a more balanced rifle myself so I went with the 9007 over the D2. The D2 has a nice illuminator but the Luna will do that and much more if I need to really get out there.

    What Eric said about the Echo vs. WHP is pretty spot on. Just last night we drove over to our range and took some comparison pics with a BNVD with Elbit XLS and BNVD with Echo spec tubes. What prompted this was getting in some Echo BNVDs that had VERY CLOSE specs to an XLS BNVD we have in our family's gear. So we could finally do a close comparison. I'll try to post that here when I get a few minutes.

    On a good note- we are expecting more of our "Available Now WP3 PVS14s" soon. They always sell out quick, but it's a way to get a high quality WP Elbit PVS14 without a 16-20 week wait right now.

    OP if you have any questions feel free to call or email

    912.375.1480
    robert@jrhenterprises.com
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowdown3 View Post
    Thanks for your business and the nice words.

    I like a more balanced rifle myself so I went with the 9007 over the D2. The D2 has a nice illuminator but the Luna will do that and much more if I need to really get out there.

    What Eric said about the Echo vs. WHP is pretty spot on. Just last night we drove over to our range and took some comparison pics with a BNVD with Elbit XLS and BNVD with Echo spec tubes. What prompted this was getting in some Echo BNVDs that had VERY CLOSE specs to an XLS BNVD we have in our family's gear. So we could finally do a close comparison. I'll try to post that here when I get a few minutes.

    On a good note- we are expecting more of our "Available Now WP3 PVS14s" soon. They always sell out quick, but it's a way to get a high quality WP Elbit PVS14 without a 16-20 week wait right now.

    OP if you have any questions feel free to call or email

    912.375.1480
    robert@jrhenterprises.com
    Thanks for taking the time to talk to me earlier. Will be sure to sign up for enail notifications and shoot you an email with what I am looking for.



    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Thank you!

    Should have more of the "Available now WP3 PVS14 White phosphor 3rd gen" units available soon and they will ship out same day order received.
    Site Advertiser


    www.jrhenterprises.com
    Ask about M4carbine.net discounts
    30 years in business- Since 1992
    912.375.1480
    robert@jrhenterprises.com

  6. #6
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    I would recommend going with an Elbit XLSH for around 2500, or stepping up to filmless. I have no experience with Echo, but I'm hearing some really good things about them, and also seeing some pretty incredible deals out there.

    You can also fool around on the forums and pick up used tubes and housings cheap. I just built a loaner unit for 1400 all in. It's a green OMNI VII contract tube in a brand new Carson housing, and I've actually kind of starting using it myself as a primary to keep my expensive stuff nice. It's got some blems, but they don't really affect the utility of it.

    Also don't overlook the Crye Nightcap, especially for a 14. Cheaper than a bump, and has many advantages. Packs down smaller, cooler in the summer, can use your hood in the winter, more comfortable.

    Have the X14 arm and love it! Dumped my Wilcox J arm and haven't looked back.

    Not a huge fan of the idea of modding a Rhino II, just from a cost benefit perspective. There's nothing really wrong with the newer milspec J arms because they have little teeth now that keep them from slipping, so the only real problem that existed with them has been fixed. So if you're going to try and save money I would go that way. If you want dovetail, I would look into the INVG from Norotos. It was purpose built especially for monoculars.

    Don't know anything about the D2. My only laser aimer experience is with the old PAQ and the current PEQ15A. The PAQ is a low power unit, and the PEQ also has low power settings, both of which are pretty limited in my opinion. Were I to go the low power route, I would get a Steiner OTAL and a Surefire M600V with a Modlite dual lead button. That's basically going to give you more functionality than a low power combination aimer illuminator.

    Lastly, you might want to look into the Nocturn Tanto housing and glass that just came out. I plan on upgrading my housing in the near future. Since you want to go for long hikes especially, the lighter you get the happier you'll be, and the weight savings are significant. When it comes to things hanging on your face, grams equal ounces and ounces equal pain. It's like a 40% weight reduction.
    Last edited by okie; 10-26-21 at 10:36.

  7. #7
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    @okie @eric0311
    Thank you guys for responding, I've read over both your post a few times each and have been trying to weigh out my options.

    Not sure how well cameras do at representing how illuminators truly look. I've seen some where the person in the vid says they work well but the view doesn't seem to match. Often some of the brighter ones just appear to be a circle of light that looks to completely wash out what you can view. Might just be that an iphone or what ever camera they are using just can't record what is going on well.

    With the D2, I've heard of the red glow. Anyone know how far/close you need to be to see this, and what is the angle you need to see it?

    As for the M600V, guessing I may need a separate white light? Seems the white light on that is 350 lumen, not super bright by today's standards.


    Of course I can never find a vid that has the models I'm looking to compare, so I need ro watch different ones and try to guess how they would match up.

    Here are some of the ones I was observing. Would the M300V be similar to the M600V?

    The pics below are mostly labeled. The ones that are not are from an A3 at 100, 200 and 300 yards. The last one wuth the crazy bright spot is a full power Perst 3 I think? That one almost seems too bright, or is that just the way the camera records it? If anyone is interested in seeing rhe full videos, I can link them.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  8. #8
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    White light on the current M620V is a pure white and is noticeably brighter than my M600Us. It throws out 75ish yards and fills a room both vis and IR.

    The red glow from an IR LED requires you to be almost head-on and very close to be seen. It's a non-issue.

  9. #9
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    Yea the illuminators are basically for long range. If you put them on wide beam on low they're sort of useful at closer ranges, but they don't have any spill, and they tend to either not illuminate or just overwhelm things at closer ranges. Where they really shine, no pun intended, is seeing and especially marking targets at long range. A thousand yards is nothing for them on high power.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTF425 View Post
    White light on the current M620V is a pure white and is noticeably brighter than my M600Us. It throws out 75ish yards and fills a room both vis and IR.

    The red glow from an IR LED requires you to be almost head-on and very close to be seen. It's a non-issue.
    I have measured the LUX on the M600V series white light to be around 18K at 1M. The 1000L scout light was around 13K or so. The M600V, I believe, is surefire's hardest thrower at present (X300/400V should tie it?) in small WML format.

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