Difference in Training Programs Style and Focus

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Looking at taking some classes. Looks like Vickers, Viking and Magpul are the the three most mentioned here. Not to start a back and forth arguement, but what is the difference between them, say for a carbine class. I have the Magpul DVD, so I have a feel for that. As Travis say in the DVD, I'm a Hobby Shooter, so that would be my frame of reference.

Thanks!

[Jim D]

If you read some of the AAR's, or even scan through some of the pics from the classes, you'll begin to see the different approaches.

Checkout CSAT's website, and Paul Howe's articles...the compare that stuff to what you heard and saw in the MagPul DVD. Look at how Howe loads his carbine in the LWRC Future Weapons clip on youtube, and how he loads it in his promo on his sight...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHreIMu1d6M
which I hear is exactly how I hear he teaches in his classes. Compare that to what you saw in the DVD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LILq8uQFoec The differences are huge.

Look at Larry and Paul's carbines...then look at Haley and Costa's in the DVD. Look at their choices of slings, vert grips, etc.

Look at the round count in the DVD, versus what folks are saying they shoot in LAV's and Howe's courses.

I know the MagPul guys post here, so does Greg Hamilton from InSights, LAV of course, dunno about Viking Tactical or Spartan Tactical..... so I'm not gonna get into which I think is "best", or who I would spend money with first.... I would say though, look long and hard at the pics/ vids/ articles/ AAR's from some of the folks mentioned...and go from there.

[Iraq Ninja]

Don't be too quick to judge a teacher based on what you see, be it good or bad. There are often more than one approach to solve a situation. What I look for in a teacher is experience and wisdom.

I have no need for instructors, just teachers. There is a big difference between the two. All the names mentioned so far are good to go in my book. But then, there are places like Front Sight that do not interest me at all.

[Jim D]

Don't be too quick to judge a teacher based on what you see, be it good or bad. There are often more than one approach to solve a situation. What I look for in a teacher is experience and wisdom.

I have no need for instructors, just teachers. There is a big difference between the two. All the names mentioned so far are good to go in my book. But then, there are places like Front Sight that do not interest me at all.

Why do you say that?

I firmly believe that an instructor/ teacher should practice what they preach. If they don't it makes you question why they don't.

I agree that there are many ways to solve the same problems. However, I still believe that some ways ARE better than others.

If you look at IPSC shooters.....the vast majority shoot with the same grip on their pistol, and reload the gun in exactly the same fashion. That you have so many shooters arriving at the same method, speaks to how well it works.

When you look at the same thing WRT instructors...that you have 20 year vets from one of most highly trained military units beating the same drum, I think it gives their techniques some added validity.

Not questioning what you see an instructor do is dangerous, IMO.

[Saginaw79]

Ive been trained various ways, and many over more than a decade

One says no dont do that, another says thats the way

Just pick what works best for you and use it

[Blinking Dog]

Checkout CSAT's website, and Paul Howe's articles...Look at how Howe loads his carbine in the LWRC Future Weapons clip on youtube, and how he loads it in his promo on his sight...

That method of loading is indeed what Paul teaches in his classes. He had good reasoning for why he does it that way, and I have adopted it in my technique. Doesn't really add much time to make sure you have a round chambered.

Paul is great. Like LV, Paul spent a lot of time in Delta. I think Paul's experience in Somalia made a lasting impact on how he does things. I think you could boil his philosophy down to simplicity and replicability. He's all about using a technique that can be transfered across weapons platforms...or in other words, doing the same thing over and over...muscle memory I guess. And not getting caught up in gimmicks or equipment...just what you need to get the job done.

He's the real deal, and he has a great training facility.

[Iraq Ninja]

Why do you say that?

Well, because I wasn't sure what your point was in comparing CSAT to Magpul Dynamics. I have trained with Paul and I liked what I learned from him. I haven't trained with Haley and Costa, and only seen the DVD. I see no problems with what they are doing.

Yes, there are better ways to run a weapon, or solve a problem related to a firearm, but only in terms of the context of the situation.

I am not a hobby shooter, and I train because my life depends on it every day I drive out the front gate. Shooting for me has to be directly related to fighting, and not just for shooting per se. So, I don't want a linear mindset with limitations of techniques and options. I don't want someone to tell me that "a way" is the better way because I know that it not always true.

For instance, If you watch to video clip of someone shooting their rifle using their index finger, and then have you watch another video of someone using their ring finger, which would you consider the better way? Most of us will agree that the index finger is the best. Many people may even laugh at the idea of training to use other fingers or even their thumbs to fire their weapon.

It is part of my training. Not because someone said I should do it, but because I once had my fingers burned after being blown up by a VBIED and I could not use my index fingers to shoot with. Afterwords, I realized that it may be a good idea to train using the other fingers. This is an example of a technique based on wisdom and experience.

Thus, I prefer to seek out instructors who I feel have the real experience to offer wisdom, and I do not judge such instructors solely on what I see on a video clip or read in an AAR. I may form an opinion on what I see, but I try and keep an open mind.

I hope this makes sense

[John Hearne]

only in terms of the context of the situation.

This is the key. The job you're trying to do will determine how you do it - this is called context. Many of the high-end carbine instructors come from a military background. They frequently have team mates and work in an environment where supressive fire and small unit tactics are permissable.

If you're grabbing your AR while wearing nothing but your boxers after hearing the front door kicked in, the context provided above won't have a lot to offer (outside of the obvious mechanics of shooting/manipulating).

From a non-military, CONUS perspective, you don't see many large round count rifle fights. A lot of stateside carbine rifle shooting involve one or two shots. Again, not what the high end military guys are teaching.

This isn't meant to take anything away from the great instructors that are out there, it's a reminder to figure out what YOU are going to do with your weapon (pistol, rifle, shotgun) and find someone who teaches methods optimized for that context.

[Jim D]

Well, because I wasn't sure what your point was in comparing CSAT to Magpul Dynamics. I have trained with Paul and I liked what I learned from him. I haven't trained with Haley and Costa, and only seen the DVD. I see no problems with what they are doing.

Yes, there are better ways to run a weapon, or solve a problem related to a firearm, but only in terms of the context of the situation.

I am not a hobby shooter, and I train because my life depends on it every day I drive out the front gate. Shooting for me has to be directly related to fighting, and not just for shooting per se. So, I don't want a linear mindset with limitations of techniques and options. I don't want someone to tell me that "a way" is the better way because I know that it not always true.

For instance, If you watch to video clip of someone shooting their rifle using their index finger, and then have you watch another video of someone using their ring finger, which would you consider the better way? Most of us will agree that the index finger is the best. Many people may even laugh at the idea of training to use other fingers or even their thumbs to fire their weapon.

It is part of my training. Not because someone said I should do it, but because I once had my fingers burned after being blown up by a VBIED and I could not use my index fingers to shoot with. Afterwords, I realized that it may be a good idea to train using the other fingers. This is an example of a technique based on wisdom and experience.

Thus, I prefer to seek out instructors who I feel have the real experience to offer wisdom, and I do not judge such instructors solely on what I see on a video clip or read in an AAR. I may form an opinion on what I see, but I try and keep an open mind.

I hope this makes sense

You make a good point regarding alternate techniques. It's great to train for contingencies...I agree 100%.

However, There is simply some material out there, and I'm not talking about any 1 specific person/ organization, that just doesn't make sense to use.

IMO, each TTP you consider needs to be examined in costs and benefits. In doing this, you typically arrive at what makes sense to do. If you were to say "well this is A way, and it works..." and not examine the costs and benefits associated with the particular TTP in question...you're doing yourself a dis-service, IMO.

I'm simply saying that if you start asking those questions as you shop for training...then you can hopefully make as educated of a decision as possible. I for one, don't have the money to training with 6 different companies on the same topic...so I need to be careful with where I spend my dollars.

[gyp_c2]

...another little thing to keep in mind...
Some instructors may be capable of gearing a class to the group involved on the fly...
Don't think yer' gettin' the same thing from a vid that you get from actually being there...
You don't feel anything from a video...having someone tune you up is a slightly different experience in person...or, so I've heard...