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Thread: I am really struggling with LPVOs

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    They don't really offer much in REAL long range. Shoot! There's times were we get on the 15X Nightforce and it seems low magnification compared to the 24X big brothers.



    No. LPVOs are very niche to me. And the bulk and weight you mentioned isn't worth the limited range.

    You can do just fine with a 3-9x out to 1,000 yards. I had no trouble hitting at 9x with a Savage 10FP. Group size when the Wyoming wind died down was 10-12” with Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain. 8x shouldn’t be that much different. Maybe you will find it’s best from 600-800 yards.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 11-29-21 at 10:19.

  2. #62
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    My experience with LPVO optics is that they are necessary for a general purpose rifle. A true 1.0 magnification is essential; Leupold 1.5x slowed me down too much on the close range Vickers drills (10 shots in 10 sec at 50, 10 shots in 5s at like 25 yd and 10 shots in 2.5s at 5 or 10 …I misremember).

    I believe you should not tailor a self-defense gun to your local gun range. My belief has always been that I should be able to hit to 400 yards with an AR-15 in 223/5.56. Obviously, if you are doing competition, then build the gun for the game. But that was not your stated purpose.

    Target discovery and identification is important. For me, with my vision, a target becomes “hidden” at around 150-175 yards. This means I need some sort of magnification past 100 yards to be sure. I found 4x to be pretty good for me and how my perception works. 3x is adequate for 200 yards. So, given my limitations, an LPVO with a true 1.0 at the bottom to 4x or 6x is just fine for meeting my 400 yard requirement. The ACOG/RMR combo would work for me too, but my Burris MTAC is $1,000 less and I have them mounted and ready.

    I shot a friend’s AR15 setup for 600-800 over a decade ago. It had a Nightforce 3-9x on it and I hit 29 out of 30 shots at 600 yards. It was quite the gun, but not setup for my mission of self defense.

    My recommendation is to use iron sights and determine where targets become impossible to see. Some guys have great eyes and can do incredible things. It may be that an RDS with 3x magnifier and a proper zero is all you need to get to 400 with reasonable accuracy (and identification) and makes 100 yard shots easy. However, you may need more and a 4x ACOG or 1-4/6/8x LPVO may be best. You have to know your gun’s dope; I use a 100 yard zero because the offsets are smaller. But, they should still be written on the stock.

    100 yards may be what you think you need, but your actual fight may require more. I found 4x to be sufficient but I know the world is moving to 6x and 8x. Spend some time testing and you will figure it out.

    Tip from Aimpoint: Zero to the top edge of the dot. This gets you more precision. Know what range the BOTTOM of the dot correlates to. Also understand what is going on inside the dot at different distances. I get much better groups using the top edge, but up close the whole dot groups decently at speed. Also note that the average human shoulders are 18” across and can be used for ranging. LPVO optics are better for this, though I think Trijicon may have hash marks for that purpose.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 11-29-21 at 09:47.

  3. #63
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    Another trick: Get a good laser range finder. Determine distances from your windows, porch, etc to objects where an enemy would seek cover or concealment—fences, trees, wood piles, neighbor’s living room window, etc.

    Then, take that notebook to the indoor gun range and practice getting 78, 47, 123, etc yard groups using the edges and center of the dot. Keep detailed records on performance.

    Once you have done that, you will have prepared for the home defense mission you specified. You may find your current setup does not allow for the longer distance shots, so change accordingly. OBVIOUSLY THIS JUSTIFIES BUYING ANOTHER RIFLE AND OPTIC.
    Last edited by tomrkba; 11-29-21 at 10:00.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
    Another trick: Get a good laser range finder. Determine distances from your windows, porch, etc to objects where an enemy would seek cover or concealment—fences, trees, wood piles, neighbor’s living room window, etc.

    Then, take that notebook to the indoor gun range and practice getting 78, 47, 123, etc yard groups using the edges and center of the dot. Keep detailed records on performance.

    Once you have done that, you will have prepared for the home defense mission you specified. You may find your current setup does not allow for the longer distance shots, so change accordingly. OBVIOUSLY THIS JUSTIFIES BUYING ANOTHER RIFLE AND OPTIC.
    This is a great post, but many neglect how important the first line is. Know your habitat. Fantastic points tomrkba
    98% Sarcastic. 100% Overthinking things and making up reasons for buying a new firearm.

  5. #65
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    “Sector sketch” as a search term for those looking to learn more about that technique.
    RLTW
    “Y-you realize that nighttime makes up half of all time?” -Rick Sanchez

    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post

    Tip from Aimpoint: Zero to the top edge of the dot. This gets you more precision. Know what range the BOTTOM of the dot correlates to. Also understand what is going on inside the dot at different distances. I get much better groups using the top edge, but up close the whole dot groups decently at speed.
    Nice tip!! Thanks

  7. #67
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    I have always been a red dot guy. I can hit center mass at 400 yards and a bit easier/faster with a 3X.

    I bought a trijicon 1-4 in the past and didn’t think it was better for my application of overall SHTF and went back to red dot.

    Currently decided to get a short barrel AR (10.3 pistol) and I’ll put the T2/ magnifier on that set up and will put a vortex razor 1-6 on my 14.5 barrel set up just to have different builds.

    If only I had 1, red dot/magnifier would be used

  8. #68
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    I won't waste many keystrokes as others have already articulated it better, but the observation capabilities of variable powered optics simply cannot be overstated. Real world scenarios involving targets that are peeking or moving from cover to cover make a great case for increasing the capability.

    4 to 6x is the difference between seeing if that guy across the street acting like he's going to start a fight is holding a subcompact or a cell phone. 8 to 12x is the difference between seeing if that crap on the street is random trash or an IED marker. Some may read this and tell themselves they'll never want or need such a capability, and they may not, but both such events demonstrate the usefulness of magnification without requiring one to actually put rounds on target. YMMV.

  9. #69
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    When discussing observation, its very important to realize that to use a LPVO in that role, you'd be pointing a rifle at what you are observing which isn't without risk.

    Range finding binoculars or a spotting scope may be stronger tools for that role.

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