I am really struggling with LPVOs

[pointblank4445]

Yet, I still hear folks dip their toe in the pond and make claims like:
"There's no need for FFP at all"
"You'll never dial on an LPVO, so I don't need that"
"I only care about the optic at 1x and 8x/6x (or whatever the top end)...."
"I'll never need to shoot that far/see that far"

I would like to read your correction of these misconceptions, especially the last one.

1) 1-8x is where I think you can make the argument that it has merit. Too many people apply the context of their 1-4 or 1-6x 2nd FP and assume it translates to 1-8x. Field situations may dictate that FOV not be on full-power but expedient holds are required. The circumstance may be competitive environment where one chooses an optimum setting but still has multiple target distances under time. In the case of practical experience, it's a lower power setting to survey the scene but one must still rely on hold values for leading a potential running target/squirter. Not something everybody needs but there it is.

2) Average sniper/police shooting distance and general rule for defensive shooting is what it is. If people don't want to play in the deep-end of the pool they don't have to, but don't assume that others can't/don't/shouldn't.
The wind/elevation hold reticles in the ATACR, Razor 1-10 and Dual CC are nice for the practical applications of a good optic/ammo/rifle/shooter. That being said, the FULL potential is much, much more than most give credit for. Any clown can sling bullets into a berm and adjust from where the dust kicks up and hit given enough chances. When pushing limits of a 5.56 carbine at distance, the wind is less forgiving as is the elevation and dialing gives a person one less variable to fight if one wishes to make a first or even a 2nd or 3rd round hit with out guessing and being repeatable and responding to conditions. Second is the process doping of the rifle and truing the data; being able to see and tweak the numbers for one's self saves a lot of time and headache. They can't cram a Tremor 3 into an LPVO (at least I hope they don't try that...the H27 CQBSS is excessive enough), there is a place for dialing if one wishes to eek every bit of performance.

3) I found I did a lot of work at 2x-4x in my optics over the years. 4x is about the limit to my off-hand stability/optics. 2x is about my optimum for 25-70y which gave me good situational awareness on scene for raids on approach but showed me things not visible to my 1x eyeball. Depending on certain drills, standards, I have a variety of sweet spots for magnification depending on the range/target size/time standard. This versatility is great for those that understand how to utilize it; a curse to those those that don't as they often find themselves with too much or not enough power.

4) See all the above. The thing about real life is people who don't want to be caught or seen generally put forth effort to stay free/hidden. You don't know what you're going to need until you don't have it. As DefaultMp3 already mentioned regarding Pressburg, it's not going to be plucking the Ace at 600y, the reality is being able to see and acquire a shooting solution on the guy peeking around the corner and being able to see and put it through the orbital at 67y and break-off a piece. Maybe you can't do that with your Aimpoint/mag or ACOG...maybe you just as well can, but what about some of the other things I mention. I know that there are people still on this Earth (or at least without extra holes) and bad guys in jail because I could see the shadow behind a barely cracked door less than 30y away through my Short Dot when my partner with an EOTech could not. Same goes for seeing the padlocked gate (that was not locked the night before) and saved my team a path that would compromise a quick, silent approach. In my career, I have been able to SEE things I would've had to go places I wouldn't be safe to see.

All that and being 100% effective 0-500y (with very positive capability to 1/2 mile) is just plain cool.
It's not a cheap ride, but it's a damn good one...if you're willing to put in the work, buy right and commit.

Cheers.

[Mjolnir]

One note to point out. The piggybacked reddot on an ACOG is high, but not any higher than the ultra high mounts that seem to be all the rage. It's definitely a compromise but it works.

If you’re right handed

Leave the rifle in your shoulder pocket.

Keep your cheek weld.

ROLL THE RIFLE UNTIL THE OPTIC & DOT APPEARS IN THE LEFT EYE.

Do the reverse if you’re left-handed.

There is zero need to alter your cheek rest - just roll the rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Disciple]

All that and being 100% effective 0-500y (with very positive capability to 1/2 mile) is just plain cool.
It's not a cheap ride, but it's a damn good one...if you're willing to put in the work, buy right and commit.

Thanks for the summary. Are there any issues with non-adjustable parallax in your experience?

[titsonritz]

.
It's not a cheap ride, but it's a damn good one...if you're willing to put in the work, buy right and commit.

Especially if you're talking about S&B's in Spuhr mounts. Very nice.

[pointblank4445]

Thanks for the summary. Are there any issues with non-adjustable parallax in your experience?

That has largely depended on make/model. I've never required it in S&B or the CQBSS and maybe some others like Kahles. In some NF models, yes. 8x is about the limit of not needing it.

When toying with MPVO/mrds's as an alternative, this concept has a whole other list of pro's and con's compared to even the LPVO's and the other sighting options. I actually got annoyed by the requirement always have to fiddle with the parallax on my 4-16x42 ATACR for a mere 5.56 DMR. Not to sound lazy, but the LPVO's lack of one is kind of a blessing in that sense; one less thing to worry about. That said, I'm pretty picky on my optic height, stock/cheek height and getting that correct for what I'm doing and reducing parallax errors in that sense.

[RUTGERS95]

Look, the reason I said what I said was not to start a pissing match between who is better or not. I forgot I was on M4C for a minute and have to change gears.

I've seen what I've seen over the last 2 decades and it is what it is. I still stand by my assertion that: In a given scenario beyond 50y, the confidence of the user to facilitate an abrupt and immediate incapacitating shot to the cranial vault/t-zone (or whatever your preferred term) or to the relatively small area to immediately cease heart function pretty much follows the Dunning-Kruger curve...with your "average swat" falling in the dip of "average to above-average" where there is at least some pause if told that there is zero fail option.


THE REASON I SAY THIS relevant to the OP topic at hand as a majority of the average swat guys I have trained and served with are also the types that aren't too keen on bullet accuracy performance either. A lot of "if M855 is good enough for the military it's good enough for us". Still a fair amount that feel that irons should be considered primary aiming solutions and rds's are "supplemental" and magnified optics should be for snipers.

In other words, a large part of the equation is the refusal to harness and fully utilize equipment that will enhance performance capability...and I see some of this same narrow vision in the initial posts of this thread that mirror the same mentality that have impeded I've seen doing the job.


You can lead a horse to water...
Been using LPVO's since before most of you could probably afford a decent one (most still can't or won't spend the coin). Yet, I still hear folks dip their toe in the pond and make claims like:
"There's no need for FFP at all"
"You'll never dial on an LPVO, so I don't need that"
"I only care about the optic at 1x and 8x/6x (or whatever the top end)...."
"I'll never need to shoot that far/see that far"


I'll leave ya'll with some of my LPVO goodness from back in the day BEFORE joining the sniper element...CHEERS
PS, that 1.1-4x S&B saved more than a few asses with my ability to see where an EOTech could not.

slowdown, I think you need to reread my posts and that they relate to NJ where LE was concerned lest I think we're back on arfcom here ha
it's all good but Florida Panhandle and your locale is much different. I live in the most upside down state for firearm rules for both LE and non LE.

[RUTGERS95]

1) 1-8x is where I think you can make the argument that it has merit. Too many people apply the context of their 1-4 or 1-6x 2nd FP and assume it translates to 1-8x. Field situations may dictate that FOV not be on full-power but expedient holds are required. The circumstance may be competitive environment where one chooses an optimum setting but still has multiple target distances under time. In the case of practical experience, it's a lower power setting to survey the scene but one must still rely on hold values for leading a potential running target/squirter. Not something everybody needs but there it is.

2) Average sniper/police shooting distance and general rule for defensive shooting is what it is. If people don't want to play in the deep-end of the pool they don't have to, but don't assume that others can't/don't/shouldn't.
The wind/elevation hold reticles in the ATACR, Razor 1-10 and Dual CC are nice for the practical applications of a good optic/ammo/rifle/shooter. That being said, the FULL potential is much, much more than most give credit for. Any clown can sling bullets into a berm and adjust from where the dust kicks up and hit given enough chances. When pushing limits of a 5.56 carbine at distance, the wind is less forgiving as is the elevation and dialing gives a person one less variable to fight if one wishes to make a first or even a 2nd or 3rd round hit with out guessing and being repeatable and responding to conditions. Second is the process doping of the rifle and truing the data; being able to see and tweak the numbers for one's self saves a lot of time and headache. They can't cram a Tremor 3 into an LPVO (at least I hope they don't try that...the H27 CQBSS is excessive enough), there is a place for dialing if one wishes to eek every bit of performance.

3) I found I did a lot of work at 2x-4x in my optics over the years. 4x is about the limit to my off-hand stability/optics. 2x is about my optimum for 25-70y which gave me good situational awareness on scene for raids on approach but showed me things not visible to my 1x eyeball. Depending on certain drills, standards, I have a variety of sweet spots for magnification depending on the range/target size/time standard. This versatility is great for those that understand how to utilize it; a curse to those those that don't as they often find themselves with too much or not enough power.

4) See all the above. The thing about real life is people who don't want to be caught or seen generally put forth effort to stay free/hidden. You don't know what you're going to need until you don't have it. As DefaultMp3 already mentioned regarding Pressburg, it's not going to be plucking the Ace at 600y, the reality is being able to see and acquire a shooting solution on the guy peeking around the corner and being able to see and put it through the orbital at 67y and break-off a piece. Maybe you can't do that with your Aimpoint/mag or ACOG...maybe you just as well can, but what about some of the other things I mention. I know that there are people still on this Earth (or at least without extra holes) and bad guys in jail because I could see the shadow behind a barely cracked door less than 30y away through my Short Dot when my partner with an EOTech could not. Same goes for seeing the padlocked gate (that was not locked the night before) and saved my team a path that would compromise a quick, silent approach. In my career, I have been able to SEE things I would've had to go places I wouldn't be safe to see.

All that and being 100% effective 0-500y (with very positive capability to 1/2 mile) is just plain cool.
It's not a cheap ride, but it's a damn good one...if you're willing to put in the work, buy right and commit.

Cheers.

good post and agree it all comes down to work, familiarity with your tools and range and of course, time to put in. Also agree that the lpvo discussion leave the mid band of the optic which is really crazy as range matters and that versatility is important.

good discussion

[Mysteryman]

1) 1-8x is where I think you can make the argument that it has merit. Too many people apply the context of their 1-4 or 1-6x 2nd FP and assume it translates to 1-8x. Field situations may dictate that FOV not be on full-power but expedient holds are required. The circumstance may be competitive environment where one chooses an optimum setting but still has multiple target distances under time. In the case of practical experience, it's a lower power setting to survey the scene but one must still rely on hold values for leading a potential running target/squirter. Not something everybody needs but there it is.

2) Average sniper/police shooting distance and general rule for defensive shooting is what it is. If people don't want to play in the deep-end of the pool they don't have to, but don't assume that others can't/don't/shouldn't.
The wind/elevation hold reticles in the ATACR, Razor 1-10 and Dual CC are nice for the practical applications of a good optic/ammo/rifle/shooter. That being said, the FULL potential is much, much more than most give credit for. Any clown can sling bullets into a berm and adjust from where the dust kicks up and hit given enough chances. When pushing limits of a 5.56 carbine at distance, the wind is less forgiving as is the elevation and dialing gives a person one less variable to fight if one wishes to make a first or even a 2nd or 3rd round hit with out guessing and being repeatable and responding to conditions. Second is the process doping of the rifle and truing the data; being able to see and tweak the numbers for one's self saves a lot of time and headache. They can't cram a Tremor 3 into an LPVO (at least I hope they don't try that...the H27 CQBSS is excessive enough), there is a place for dialing if one wishes to eek every bit of performance.

3) I found I did a lot of work at 2x-4x in my optics over the years. 4x is about the limit to my off-hand stability/optics. 2x is about my optimum for 25-70y which gave me good situational awareness on scene for raids on approach but showed me things not visible to my 1x eyeball. Depending on certain drills, standards, I have a variety of sweet spots for magnification depending on the range/target size/time standard. This versatility is great for those that understand how to utilize it; a curse to those those that don't as they often find themselves with too much or not enough power.

4) See all the above. The thing about real life is people who don't want to be caught or seen generally put forth effort to stay free/hidden. You don't know what you're going to need until you don't have it. As DefaultMp3 already mentioned regarding Pressburg, it's not going to be plucking the Ace at 600y, the reality is being able to see and acquire a shooting solution on the guy peeking around the corner and being able to see and put it through the orbital at 67y and break-off a piece. Maybe you can't do that with your Aimpoint/mag or ACOG...maybe you just as well can, but what about some of the other things I mention. I know that there are people still on this Earth (or at least without extra holes) and bad guys in jail because I could see the shadow behind a barely cracked door less than 30y away through my Short Dot when my partner with an EOTech could not. Same goes for seeing the padlocked gate (that was not locked the night before) and saved my team a path that would compromise a quick, silent approach. In my career, I have been able to SEE things I would've had to go places I wouldn't be safe to see.

All that and being 100% effective 0-500y (with very positive capability to 1/2 mile) is just plain cool.
It's not a cheap ride, but it's a damn good one...if you're willing to put in the work, buy right and commit.

Cheers.

The factor that's missing here is mission set. For the MIL/LE guy some of the advantages are absolutely life saving and border on being essential. For the HD citizen, not so much.

If you’re right handed

Leave the rifle in your shoulder pocket.

Keep your cheek weld.

ROLL THE RIFLE UNTIL THE OPTIC & DOT APPEARS IN THE LEFT EYE.

Do the reverse if you’re left-handed.

There is zero need to alter your cheek rest - just roll the rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed!

[pointblank4445]

The factor that's missing here is mission set. For the MIL/LE guy some of the advantages are absolutely life saving and border on being essential. For the HD citizen, not so much.

Begs the question: "What is the 'mission set' for the HD citizen?" I'm told above that things are different in NJ compared to the FL panhandle compared to (where ever I'm from)...might that not be the same variance from individual to individual...region to region?

Somewhere between the Red Dawn LARPing fantasies of donning NVG's, plate carriers and the white bread reality that your encounter will just as likely be with your CCW outside your home or not be as planned if defending your home. If going by "most likely", we should all just have j-frames and 870's and drive a Toyota Camry.
The defining parameters of an armed citizen are probably more blurred than any of the others IMHO.

I won't disagree that fore solely short-range, reactive, CQB style shooting is why I still have a dedicated Rifle with an Aimpoint, but as stated it is a "niche'" weapon. Or potentially, an ACOG/rmr may indeed be a better value for some.

My other guns, I also hunt, compete, and shoot them for general amusement as well in addition to being able to do 98+% of the above job.



IF an individual were looking to follow the example, it would indeed be that of an LE sniper based on the individual/pair dynamic, general emphasis on skill and stealth over dynamic violence of action given the probability of working as an individual (or pair if you're lucky). And (despite what some here think) the context of application of force based not on .mil ROE but state criminal statute.

...but obviously I'm a bit biased toward that role.

[sinister]

Kit, you've probably made the right decision going back to what you're most comfortable with.

A low-power variable optic is, by definition, a compromise -- and capability comes with a price tag.

There are lots of guys who want the latest Delta Team 6 Regiment Green Sock SOPMOD bolt-on, price be damned. Few will know the "Why."

Of course the Army will default to some acronym, so let's start there. Mission-Enemy-Time-Troops-Terrain. What is it you're going to do? What is the enemy's most dangerous course of action. What is the enemy's most likely course of action? What's your part in the job? Are you contact or cover?

If your shot is most likely to be within 75 yards around the house or your property, or stepping out of your patrol car, G-Ride, or hoopty, are you faster with irons or some kind of red dot? Aimpoint, Eo, or Huey?

What are your percentages for longer or high-precision shots? Can you get by with a flip-magnifier? An ACOG with a 45-offset RMR?

How heavy and bulky are you willing to tolerate for a capability you'll rarely use?

Think Jeff Cooper's triangle -- Accuracy - Power - Speed. Where's your "Happy Place"?

I have a 1-4 Schmidt-Bender I rarely use. I've used and given away a bunch of Aimpoints and Eo-Techs.

I've put tens of thousands of rounds downrange using irons. I now have a 1-4 March I use for the National Match Course since my old eyes are failing (especially at 600 yards).

The work gun has an EoTech again.