I never want to hear anyone say the forward assist is useless ever again!

[mRad]

What did you do when traveling in a vehicle over rough terrain and you got slammed around after big bumps and dips? The bolt can and will easily come out of battery in those situations. So did you just rack rounds out into the vehicle instead of just tapping the FA to make sure the bolt seated correctly?

You tap/rack every time you hit a bump! Duh! Listen to the dudes that can barely run their AR as it is vs those have done so extensively.


I have actually used the FA several times. I never have any of this mythical “making it worse” situation I read about on Internet forums. Since these people mindlessly repeating bullshit know statistics so well, what is the percentage of it making it worse? I mean they have all the statistics after all. FA, when used correctly, making things worse is about as much a myth as any.


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[okie]

That number is completely BS as you would have to have actual numbers of malfunctions fixed vs unfixed to get a real number. Ive had friends or family in front line combat pretty much the entire time during GWOT. None of them have had any sort of documentation done for any of these statistics I always read about online.

Add in the fact that I have seen the FA successfully used in combat, you now have 2 first hand experiences in this thread alone. Not to mention veterans Ive seen post in other threads on te internet saying the same thing over the last few days.

Armalite did studies to determine the viability and begged the army not to include it. When basically ordered to come up with one, Stoner said he designed it with the sole intent to make it as easy as possible to delete in later versions. He predicted the army would delete it within one contract.

[kirkland]

I think there's something that a lot of people in this thread are missing. By the way Rittenhouse described his malfunction, it sounded to me like a round had been stripped from the magazine but not fully chambered, bolt went forward but stopped short of being in battery, the extractor would not have been in control of the cartridge. A tap rack would most likely have caused a double feed, which would have led to a very bad outcome for Kyle. Let's look at the forward assist for what it really is, a way to move the bolt forward, that's all. It's no different than pushing forward on a fixed bolt handle. Now I do agree that a tap rack is the right thing to do in most situations, but in this situation there's no denying that hitting the forward assist kept him in the fight and saved him from being killed, maimed, beat up by the mob, or whatever. In a high stress situation, racking the charging handle is not foolproof either, you can short shuck it, you can fail to grab it properly, your fingers can slip off. Hitting the forward assist on the other hand is foolproff, it's a big huge button that you can't miss, and it works when your rifle is in a certain condition, like the one Rittenhouse described. Additionally, if you watch the video, he had very little time to fix the malfunction with Grosskreutz bearing down on him with Glock in hand. Hitting the forward assist is faster than a tap rack, and like I said before it's a foolproof action. You can't really **** up hitting the forward assist. Kyle had a malfunction, assessed the condition of his firearm, fixed the problem, and dealt with the attacker, all within the span of a few milliseconds. The FA is not useless, we have proof on video.

[C-grunt]

Armalite did studies to determine the viability and begged the army not to include it. When basically ordered to come up with one, Stoner said he designed it with the sole intent to make it as easy as possible to delete in later versions. He predicted the army would delete it within one contract.

History is full of designers making things one way and end users needing it to be done another. Every mechanic I know has at least a few auto engineers they want to kick in the balls.

[Red*Lion]

I used the one on my M16A2 in Iraq during an ambush in 2003. Of course they work.

[Mysteryman]

What did you do when traveling in a vehicle over rough terrain and you got slammed around after big bumps and dips? The bolt can and will easily come out of battery in those situations. So did you just rack rounds out into the vehicle instead of just tapping the FA to make sure the bolt seated correctly?

Here we go again with a very specific scenario that is far from common. Do you not close your dust cover? Are you not in control of your rifle? Perhaps muzzle down orientation would be best. Would cycling a round out be the worst thing? What do you do with a rifle that doesn't have an FA???

That number is completely BS as you would have to have actual numbers of malfunctions fixed vs unfixed to get a real number. Ive had friends or family in front line combat pretty much the entire time during GWOT. None of them have had any sort of documentation done for any of these statistics I always read about online.

Add in the fact that I have seen the FA successfully used in combat, you now have 2 first hand experiences in this thread alone. Not to mention veterans Ive seen post in other threads on te internet saying the same thing over the last few days.

A handful of anecdotal occurrences does not validate it's use. How many stoppages are/were solved with TAP TUG RACK? Observing the action to determine the problem and thus select a solution is not possible in low/no light conditions and is time consuming. IA's require no additional data, they're instinctive. Using the FA is more a remedial action control.

I think there's something that a lot of people in this thread are missing. By the way Rittenhouse described his malfunction, it sounded to me like a round had been stripped from the magazine but not fully chambered, bolt went forward but stopped short of being in battery, the extractor would not have been in control of the cartridge. A tap rack would most likely have caused a double feed, which would have led to a very bad outcome for Kyle. Let's look at the forward assist for what it really is, a way to move the bolt forward, that's all. It's no different than pushing forward on a fixed bolt handle. Now I do agree that a tap rack is the right thing to do in most situations, but in this situation there's no denying that hitting the forward assist kept him in the fight and saved him from being killed, maimed, beat up by the mob, or whatever. In a high stress situation, racking the charging handle is not foolproof either, you can short shuck it, you can fail to grab it properly, your fingers can slip off. Hitting the forward assist on the other hand is foolproff, it's a big huge button that you can't miss, and it works when your rifle is in a certain condition, like the one Rittenhouse described. Additionally, if you watch the video, he had very little time to fix the malfunction with Grosskreutz bearing down on him with Glock in hand. Hitting the forward assist is faster than a tap rack, and like I said before it's a foolproof action. You can't really **** up hitting the forward assist. Kyle had a malfunction, assessed the condition of his firearm, fixed the problem, and dealt with the attacker, all within the span of a few milliseconds. The FA is not useless, we have proof on video.

Again, one example of a guy getting lucky where the FA solved a problem is not validation for it's use. KR could have likely avoided the problem if he had a properly built rifle instead of the basement tier S&W sport. We need to ask why the rifle failed to feed in the first place. Most common stoppages are related to unseated magazines (failure to feed or fire) followed by failure to extract then failure to eject. A failure to feed due to not going into battery is far from common.

I will ask this again. Why do some trust the rifle and magazine to function as designed from rounds 2 through 30 but not for round 1?? Why trust rounds 1 through 30 on a reload(depending on the situation)but not round 1 on an admin load? It's inconsistent and makes no sense.

[mRad]

Seems some are very emotional about their manual of arms and can’t stand others, including those with experience, choice in MoA.


I can say the level of ignorant BS in this thread is astounding. Chest-thumping, tough talk, closed minds, and unwillingness to listen to experience.


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[C-grunt]

Here we go again with a very specific scenario that is far from common. Do you not close your dust cover? Are you not in control of your rifle? Perhaps muzzle down orientation would be best. Would cycling a round out be the worst thing? What do you do with a rifle that doesn't have an FA???



A handful of anecdotal occurrences does not validate it's use. How many stoppages are/were solved with TAP TUG RACK? Observing the action to determine the problem and thus select a solution is not possible in low/no light conditions and is time consuming. IA's require no additional data, they're instinctive. Using the FA is more a remedial action control.



Again, one example of a guy getting lucky where the FA solved a problem is not validation for it's use. KR could have likely avoided the problem if he had a properly built rifle instead of the basement tier S&W sport. We need to ask why the rifle failed to feed in the first place. Most common stoppages are related to unseated magazines (failure to feed or fire) followed by failure to extract then failure to eject. A failure to feed due to not going into battery is far from common.

I will ask this again. Why do some trust the rifle and magazine to function as designed from rounds 2 through 30 but not for round 1?? Why trust rounds 1 through 30 on a reload(depending on the situation)but not round 1 on an admin load? It's inconsistent and makes no sense.

1. Uncommon scenarios are what the forward assist is there for. If it was a common need, the gun would probably get redesigned. Personally Id rather not take multiple rounds out of my gun when outside the wire, especially when I have a very easy way to remedy the situation. The BCG can move without opening the dust cover. Depending on the vehicle and what position you are riding inside the vehicle I might not be able to keep the rifle muzzle down, not that the problem cant happen that way either.

2. A handful of anecdotal occurrences from people in this thread. Plus a good bit more from threads on other websites/social media. Id say we are moving from anecdotal to sample size of people correctly using it in times of need. Ive also used SPORTS and the Push Pull Rack techniques. They work too. Just because those work doesn't mean the forward assist doesn't.

3. Checking to make sure a round chambered is just assurance. Ive seen multiple times in training where someone thought the magazine was seated and racked an empty chamber. Ive also been in a gunfight with a guy who had an empty chamber. It didn't work out well for him. Checking to see if the round chambered (if I have time) when I grab my rifle is an easy and quick way to verify the rifle is ready. I personally dont 100 percent trust my magazines to work rounds 2-30. That's why I train transition drills and carry spare mags. In my experience magazines are the biggest malfunction issue with the AR15. If you dont feel like checking your weapon, cool. I do. Ive also won a gunfight because the other guy either forgot to or unsuccessfully chambered a round in his gun.

[kirkland]

Here we go again with a very specific scenario that is far from common. Do you not close your dust cover? Are you not in control of your rifle? Perhaps muzzle down orientation would be best. Would cycling a round out be the worst thing? What do you do with a rifle that doesn't have an FA???



A handful of anecdotal occurrences does not validate it's use. How many stoppages are/were solved with TAP TUG RACK? Observing the action to determine the problem and thus select a solution is not possible in low/no light conditions and is time consuming. IA's require no additional data, they're instinctive. Using the FA is more a remedial action control.



Again, one example of a guy getting lucky where the FA solved a problem is not validation for it's use. KR could have likely avoided the problem if he had a properly built rifle instead of the basement tier S&W sport. We need to ask why the rifle failed to feed in the first place. Most common stoppages are related to unseated magazines (failure to feed or fire) followed by failure to extract then failure to eject. A failure to feed due to not going into battery is far from common.

I will ask this again. Why do some trust the rifle and magazine to function as designed from rounds 2 through 30 but not for round 1?? Why trust rounds 1 through 30 on a reload(depending on the situation)but not round 1 on an admin load? It's inconsistent and makes no sense.

Indeed, a failure to feed due to not going into battery is far from common, and I can't tell you why it happened. Maybe something occurred during the scuffle with Huber. But the point is that it happened, and a tap rack would have led to a double feed and possibly Kyle's death.

[1168]

What did you do when traveling in a vehicle over rough terrain and you got slammed around after big bumps and dips? The bolt can and will easily come out of battery in those situations. So did you just rack rounds out into the vehicle instead of just tapping the FA to make sure the bolt seated correctly?

This is really where its at its finest.

I went though a phase for like 10 years where I was extremely distrustful of them because I saw one break and tie up a gun hard in my team overseas. This was probably unreasonable, given how rare that is.

Most of my guns today have one, because suppressors. Obviously, .mil guns continue to have them. There’s a time and place for using one, the key is to know when.