I never want to hear anyone say the forward assist is useless ever again!

[MegademiC]

With life-dependent actions, yes I do check two or three times. It’s even a good idea to do a “buddy check” in some situations.


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Same with climbing- tie in, check, buddy check is the standard accepted method.

[ubet]

I've looked at this thread and didn't lock it to mainly act as a short test of sorts. You want discussion to take place, but it sounds like an HOA meeting in a retirement community. Some things in the gun community are like religion and politics, cleaning and lube are two, now we can add the forward assist.

Most know by now that SME's either don't want to deal with the arms chair folks that demand proof, etc. of what they speak or may not be able to reveal who the are. Thanks for the positive input from those who contributed, in more ways than typing dribble.

The forward assist.

General protocol is when loading is to look at the bolt's position, press the FA and close the dust cover. If a press check was done, I've always taught and practiced pressing the FA afterwards to insure the bolt was forward and locked. On the "press check" I preferred to visually or physically feel the round's position in the mag, close the bolt, release mag and check the round's position, tug on the mag after seating(seat and tug). The FA was still pressed upon bolt closure. It was also taught that is light pressure on the FA didn't close and lock the bolt, than clear and inspect.

In KR's story, he noticed the bolt's position, knew it wasn't closed and locked, bumped the forward assist and drove on. Who cares what gun he had, he obviously received training, has the presence of mind to recognize a problem and fix it. One hell of a setting to be in for anyone, let alone a 17 year old kid. And here we are sniveling over whether or not we need one and chest thumping over our forum status.

That's enough for now.

Thank you for that. Well said.


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[Dutch110]

That's a great way to get every gun myth in the book. I could fill entire volumes with gems that combat veterans have told me. You have to shoot people three times with 9mm but only once with 45, M16s suck and AKs rule (had an Iraq war veteran reference that one the other day), so on and so forth. If I need a crash course in unit tactics I will certainly look for the nearest combat vet, but I'll take my mechanical knowledge from the engineers and people who shoot a lot, military or otherwise.

Thank you for proving my (satirical) point. I work with engineers every day and could fill a book with things that they think absolutely should work in theory but fail upon practical application. Neither focus is 100% correct and the wise man takes into account both.

[ssc]

The number of folks on my Full OF Shit List grows everyday

Such words of wisdom. It is a shame what has happened to this site. I want to thank those who have shared their wisdom, earned in harm's way. I will take real world experience and try to learn.

Cheers, Steve

[pinzgauer]

You want discussion to take place, but it sounds like an HOA meeting in a retirement community.

Dead on accurate description... On both sides

One hell of a setting to be in for anyone, let alone a 17 year old kid.

And here we are sniveling over whether or not we need one and chest thumping over our forum status.

I was shaking my head reading the thread for this exact reason.

[bamashooter]

I'm pro FA but to each their own. But I see no difference between a dedicated FA on a charging handle design as opposed to tapping, hitting, etc the bolt op rod handle on a M14, AK. Very standard / instructed practice on the M14. Same deal with the magazine. Tapping the magazine was pretty much sop with the M14 passed on later to the M16, etc. Probably older systems with similar practices and characteristics but at one time that was my little piece of the world.

[Mysteryman]

Indeed, a failure to feed due to not going into battery is far from common, and I can't tell you why it happened. Maybe something occurred during the scuffle with Huber. But the point is that it happened, and a tap rack would have led to a double feed and possibly Kyle's death.

Would have could have should have. We could paint the scenario any way we want. No doubt the FA apparently played a role as KR described. The point I'm making is this. A one off case, even the other handful of cases being offered up here, do not validate it's necessity nor the need to actively train to use it. The FA has the possibility to solve ONE problem. It has the possibility of exacerbating several other problems.

He got a lot wrong. Decades of bug fixing made the AR great, and the FA is still there.

Sadly many here are either drinking the koolaid or never ran a gun long enough to know how important the FA really is. I have had numerous instances in the field and in training in the military where the FA was used. Even after Rittenhouse explains its use and successfully survives an attack by a horde of drug fueled zombies. Some (whom have likely never used a Stoner rifle in such a scenario) still harp against its merits. Dirty guns, weak springs, all attribute to poor chambering. The bolt release under the tension of a healthy spring is pretty aggressive, most of the time the FA does not require much effort from my experience. It's also possible for a bolt to back out via the CH getting caught on something. I had used the need for the FA in training numerous times prior to experiencing it in the field. We had super dirty and dry guns: I don't recall whether the lube was synthetic or conventional CLP but after 3000 rounds the spring gets weak and needs replacing. You can easily go through 3k rounds from 0600-2100 in small arms training per carbine. I have seen all manner of malfunction and stoppages in virtually every military weapon of my era. Many are catastrophic. I nearly lost a finger when my 870 barrel blew. I was hit so hard in the thigh by a loaded M9 mag when a double charge blew it out and split the barrel rendering it useless. Any mechanical device will eventually fail. Rittenhouse cheap AR worked extremely well, and we are not all fortunate enough to have a super slick coated precision made AR for recreation or duty: so the FA still serves a purpose at the last second to give you that split second chance in the mist of chaos.

Drug fueled zombies is speculation.

Dirty guns is a user error, and it's been demonstrated that several thousand rounds can be fired without cleaning and without issue. Of course that's on a properly built gun. Weak springs, that's user error as well.

Bolt release under tension... This won't matter. An empty mag in the rifle with a chambered round cannot cause an OOB bolt. KR was not in such a situation anyway.

I think you're right, the CH could easily have been caught on clothing and pulled the bolt out of battery.

You can't double charge a 9x19mm cartridge.

Using dirty and dry guns is operator error. We know dry guns die with ease, dirty guns not so much. Shooting 3000 rounds during training does not reflect all but effectively few engagements. We also know it is possible for an AR pattern rifle to digest several thousand rounds without issue.

The FA is an option that might work for one specific problem. A rifle that is properly built will experience far fewer issues than hobby grade guns like the S&W sport 2.

I've had it happen once or twice. Dirty gun? worn out action spring? crappy AR? Some unknown reason? I can just say I've seen it happen before, and I've also tap racked myself into a double feed from that condition. Where there's one round in the chamber and another round trying to wedge itself into the chamber.

Again, worn springs is a user error. Dirty isn't much of a factor if the gun is lubricated. TAP TUG RACK is an immediate action, which means it does not require any other input other than no bang. Remedial action requires more data, a diagnosis. The FA is not an IA control, at best it is an RA control. Is forcing the bolt into battery (thus a round into the chamber) the best option? Could the issue be solved via other known methods? Yes it can. Arguing the "what if" or the KR scenario as empirical evidence that the FA is necessary, is the only option for said stoppage and viable is simply a non starter.

The big problems in Vietnam were indeed done by the military. However a couple things that he designed wrong were the 1in14 twist rate and no protections around the magazine release. I also think revised versions of the rifle had some areas beefed up on the lower receiver.

Twist rate has no effect on reliability. The mag release fence also has no effect on reliability as far as firing sequence. A rifle without a magazine doesn't fail, it simply has no more ammunition to feed. The risk for inadvertently dumping the magazine is greater. Beefing up areas has to do with durability, not so much with reliability. If you're referring to the barrel, that was a false problem with a false solution.

I don't know now if I should be happy or terrified about my sheer ignorance in regards to not knowing forward assists were worse than useless and would kill me the couple of times I used them prior to and on 2-way ranges.

The vehement FA experts here need to make their voices heard! I suggest they write signed group letters to all of the white side SOF units and SMU's telling them how ate up their members are and in need of remedial training. I can arrange for delivery to the CO's.

No one said the FA would get you killed. That facetious embellishment is of your design. All some of us are saying is that the FA isn't a miracle control that will solve problems and save you every time. It's a control that MIGHT solve ONE problem, but usually serves to complicate the situation more often than not.

Hey Admins. Can we get a thread tool that filters out responses to only show the ones that are authored by people who have real world experience shooting at people and getting shot at in return? That would be fantastic. Thanks.

So by your criteria I guess hardened criminals who've exchanged rounds in the hood are qualified to comment and should be listened too without question? I'm sure there are plenty of serving or retired members on this forum who will tell you there are service members who've also seen action who are/were completely useless. Having served and having seen action does not make ones opinion gospel.

Kid fought for his life and lived. End of subject!

Agreed. The outcome was fantastic. Lots went right, lots went wrong. Lots to learn.

That's precisely the kind of malfunction Stoner was talking about when he said the FA is more likely to make things worse. If the weapon is so sandy it can't even halfway chamber, there's a high probability that forcing it to chamber is going to get the case stuck. If the round has cleared the feed lips but the extractor can't pivot to grip it, then that's beyond severe.

Agreed.

That's a great way to get every gun myth in the book. I could fill entire volumes with gems that combat veterans have told me. You have to shoot people three times with 9mm but only once with 45, M16s suck and AKs rule (had an Iraq war veteran reference that one the other day), so on and so forth. If I need a crash course in unit tactics I will certainly look for the nearest combat vet, but I'll take my mechanical knowledge from the engineers and people who shoot a lot, military or otherwise.

Sad but true.

Yeah it’s a shame that this place has turned into that. Smes used to be all over here when I joined, but they’ve been run off over the years. Might as well be TOS anymore.


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SME's built the Titanic. SME's built the rockets for space shuttle Challenger. SME's say the vaccines are safe and effective. SME's executed the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Holding a title, especially one with few if any qualifiers means nothing.

I've looked at this thread and didn't lock it to mainly act as a short test of sorts. You want discussion to take place, but it sounds like an HOA meeting in a retirement community. Some things in the gun community are like religion and politics, cleaning and lube are two, now we can add the forward assist.

Most know by now that SME's either don't want to deal with the arms chair folks that demand proof, etc. of what they speak or may not be able to reveal who the are. Thanks for the positive input from those who contributed, in more ways than typing dribble.

The forward assist.

General protocol is when loading is to look at the bolt's position, press the FA and close the dust cover. If a press check was done, I've always taught and practiced pressing the FA afterwards to insure the bolt was forward and locked. On the "press check" I preferred to visually or physically feel the round's position in the mag, close the bolt, release mag and check the round's position, tug on the mag after seating(seat and tug). The FA was still pressed upon bolt closure. It was also taught that is light pressure on the FA didn't close and lock the bolt, than clear and inspect.

In KR's story, he noticed the bolt's position, knew it wasn't closed and locked, bumped the forward assist and drove on. Who cares what gun he had, he obviously received training, has the presence of mind to recognize a problem and fix it. One hell of a setting to be in for anyone, let alone a 17 year old kid. And here we are sniveling over whether or not we need one and chest thumping over our forum status.

That's enough for now.

What constitutes light pressure on the FA? Is that something that can be replicated under stress? If the answer is to "unload reload" why not start there and skip the FA all together as it clearly hasn't and can't solve the problem? Regardless of an FA "unload reload" works for all firearms.

Not trying to call anyone out but I will ask this. After a reload do you hit the forward assist, or only on initial load? I have yet to see any known(online) service member (John Lovell, Pat McNamara, Mike Pannone, Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Garand thumb, Tactical rifleman (Karl), Shawn Ryan, Mike Glover, DJ Shipley, Slade C (formerly GBRS) or Kyle Defoor ever use the FA after a reload. Bit of a side note but building on that is the absence of a press check on reloads as well..

Thank you for proving my (satirical) point. I work with engineers every day and could fill a book with things that they think absolutely should work in theory but fail upon practical application. Neither focus is 100% correct and the wise man takes into account both.

The difference between engineer types and anecdotal stories, engineers can often prove their theory mathematically. Their theories fail when something wasn't taken into account or wasn't accounted for properly. Stories are stories.

[WillieThom]

That’s some funny shit that just happened. Kind of pathetic too. But it was funny and I laughed.

[jsbhike]

Are there any other videos where Rittenhouse details the use of the forward assist or just this clip?

[ubet]

Either have one or don’t. No one else should really care how you run your rifle. If you like it have one, if you don’t like it, don’t have one. Can this thread bee locked? It started off dumb and hasn’t gotten any better


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