I am pi$$ed off and don't know what to do about it

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Your right, but channels like Sage Dynamics has proven Holosun is no longer sub standard. Look at the white paper he has on his website for recorded failures. It will surprise you. I doubt if it will change your mind because...you...but sub standard it is not.

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01b...bb23e912fa.pdf

Mysteryman has no idea about what he's talking about. I am a LE and private firearms instructor, I shoot thousands of rounds every month and attend big name trainings at least quarterly. I run a Holosun 509T as hard as you could imagine, throw it around, run it in blizzards and mud and 110 degree heat and it's tougher than anything I have run across.

I am T&E'ing a Steiner MPS for Burris/Steiner right now. I think it might be the Holosun killer, but we'll see.

[Waylander]

( Streamlight isn't made in China either FYI)

Where are you getting this? The packaging on my Protacs literally say made in China. Not that there’s anything wrong with Streamlight but let’s be honest.

[Mysteryman]

Your right, but channels like Sage Dynamics has proven Holosun is no longer sub standard. Look at the white paper he has on his website for recorded failures. It will surprise you. I doubt if it will change your mind because...you...but sub standard it is not.

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01b...bb23e912fa.pdf

Plenty of holocrap failures out there. The better built ones are still made in China, and still support the Communist government.

What I mean by 'car and bike guys' are collectors, muscle cars, etc. Not Honda Odyssey schleps like me.

The thing about this stuff, it's not binary: there's not life-saving/not-life-saving. It's degrees. People add those degrees to probability of use/need and come up with their best decisions.

I hear you. However, there is a definite line. If it doesn't work then it isn't life saving. If there's evidence to support it doesn't work well it isn't life saving. You could probably use a bed sheet for a seat belt but I doubt it has the testing and probability of success that a standard seat belt does.

Mysteryman has no idea about what he's talking about. I am a LE and private firearms instructor, I shoot thousands of rounds every month and attend big name trainings at least quarterly. I run a Holosun 509T as hard as you could imagine, throw it around, run it in blizzards and mud and 110 degree heat and it's tougher than anything I have run across.

I am T&E'ing a Steiner MPS for Burris/Steiner right now. I think it might be the Holosun killer, but we'll see.

" I am a LE". Did you mean to say "I am an LEO."? No one is "a law enforcement". Regardless, holocrap is still Chinese made. Read above. What's interesting is that an Aimpoint Acro is almost the same price as a 509T... Weird.

Where are you getting this? The packaging on my Protacs literally say made in China. Not that there’s anything wrong with Streamlight but let’s be honest.

Some of Streamlight's products are in fact made in China. The rest are(like Surefire) assembled in the USA.

[Adrenaline_6]

Plenty of holocrap failures out there. The better built ones are still made in China, and still support the Communist government.

I'm sure there are failures out there. Just like there are RMR failures and Acro ones. He puts a lot of rounds and abuse testing all the red dots. More than probably anyone here would on a pistol sight. If it passes his abuse, it passes most anyone's. Like mentioned before, when you are 100% non Chinese, then speak up about supporting China.

Also, the 509T is titanium, hence the higher cost due to material cost alone. I don't see the need for titanium, but those willing to pay for it, they have that option I guess. The red 509T that LSHD bought is in mid $300's.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/holosun...dot-sight.html

Holocrap... lol...you sound like a jaded progressive.

What's funny is pretty much all LED's are made in China. Surefire, etc buy them from China. You still support China buying a Surefire...you just pay a lot more for the same exact LED.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

" I am a LE". Did you mean to say "I am an LEO."? No one is "a law enforcement". Regardless, holocrap is still Chinese made. Read above. What's interesting is that an Aimpoint Acro is almost the same price as a 509T... Weird.

*sigh* No, mystery man, I meant what I wrote. Not only am I a LEO, but I'm a full time Law Enforcement (you see, LE?) instructor. Now that you've failed to pick that apart, I see you still continue to spout off without any knowledge, facts, or experience.

[Waylander]

Some of Streamlight's products are in fact made in China. The rest are(like Surefire) assembled in the USA.

The post comparing hypothetical build prices lists a Streamlight HLX yet in your quote and reply you say Streamlight isn’t made in China. Here it is on their own site.

https://www.streamlight.com/docs/def...-sheet/297.pdf

[turnburglar]

Hey HSLD;

As an instructor that see's lots of kit, can you comment on the pro's/con's of any other chinese kit?

To answer the question that someone else asked: "is there a difference between chinese and American nylon to warrant the ~$200 difference in price?"

The answer is: That depends.

The Chinese are actually decent sewers and have access to great sewing machinery. In fact my personal machine is a Juki... made in china. Where the chinese dont fully measure up is their access to materials. If you have ever seen chinese multicam nylon right next to real cordura with real TM multicam you know exactly what I am talking about. To circumvent the material quality issues, some brands have resorted to sourcing American made materials and having them shipped over to china for cut and sew. This actually yields a very high quality product at a decent price. The facts are just simple. Chinese labor is more skilled and vastly cheaper than American labor. If I put 25 American hours into sewing a plate carrier, at a state minimum wage of 12.25 an hour I should be charging $300 just for the labor alone. Besides raw labor costs there may be some stitching that cant be seen from the outside. As a shop I could easily sew these hidden seems only one time and they would probably last. I sew them 5 times. It sucks but I KNOW that plate carrier will never fail. A Chinese company doesn't really care.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Hey HSLD;

As an instructor that see's lots of kit, can you comment on the pro's/con's of any other chinese kit?

To answer the question that someone else asked: "is there a difference between chinese and American nylon to warrant the ~$200 difference in price?"

The answer is: That depends.

The Chinese are actually decent sewers and have access to great sewing machinery. In fact my personal machine is a Juki... made in china. Where the chinese dont fully measure up is their access to materials. If you have ever seen chinese multicam nylon right next to real cordura with real TM multicam you know exactly what I am talking about. To circumvent the material quality issues, some brands have resorted to sourcing American made materials and having them shipped over to china for cut and sew. This actually yields a very high quality product at a decent price. The facts are just simple. Chinese labor is more skilled and vastly cheaper than American labor. If I put 25 American hours into sewing a plate carrier, at a state minimum wage of 12.25 an hour I should be charging $300 just for the labor alone. Besides raw labor costs there may be some stitching that cant be seen from the outside. As a shop I could easily sew these hidden seems only one time and they would probably last. I sew them 5 times. It sucks but I KNOW that plate carrier will never fail. A Chinese company doesn't really care.

I don't know how much Chinese gear I see, as the majority of gear we run across will be Safariland duty gear or Esstac/HSGI/Bladetech non-duty gear.

I want so much to no longer need or use Holosun, and to have an American company doing what they are. But, I just taught a 16 hour class in a blizzard and then in slush/mud, and my 509 had no issues while my RMR was on the struggle bus.

[titsonritz]

I don't know how much Chinese gear I see, as the majority of gear we run across will be Safariland duty gear or Esstac/HSGI/Bladetech non-duty gear.

I want so much to no longer need or use Holosun, and to have an American company doing what they are. But, I just taught a 16 hour class in a blizzard and then in slush/mud, and my 509 had no issues while my RMR was on the struggle bus.

I wouldn't consider that a Chinese vs American thing as much as an open emitter vs closed emitter thing.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I wouldn't consider that a Chinese vs American thing as much as an open emitter vs closed emitter thing.

To a certain extent, yes. When I can change a battery at work without going to range on my RMR, my 507-508 line will go away. If the Steiner MPS I'll be running tomorrow holds up like the 509, I'll be going to the MPS.