Setting up rifles for NVGs.

[Defaultmp3]

That's simply not true.

IME, it basically is for all practical purposes. I can generally see the muzzle flash of Sims with my bare eyes in the dark at CQB distances, and can definitely see it while looking at it with NODs, which is about the same as suppressed rifles IME. I've been shot at by overwatch elements before specifically because they stated they could see my muzzle flash, even though they could not seem me directly prior to my pulling the trigger, due lighting conditions inside versus outside the shoot house. Neither Sims nor suppressed live ammo give out a large amount of flash (particularly when using low flash duty ammo), generally small enough of a visual signature that you won't see it under NODs if it's not directly in your FOV, especially in mixed lighting environments as found in urban areas. Thus, passive aiming with either setup would give you additional obfuscation of your position compared to active aiming.

[okie]

IME, it basically is for all practical purposes. I can generally see the muzzle flash of Sims with my bare eyes in the dark at CQB distances, and can definitely see it while looking at it with NODs, which is about the same as suppressed rifles IME. I've been shot at by overwatch elements before specifically because they stated they could see my muzzle flash, even though they could not seem me directly prior to my pulling the trigger, due lighting conditions inside versus outside the shoot house. Neither Sims nor suppressed live ammo give out a large amount of flash (particularly when using low flash duty ammo), generally small enough of a visual signature that you won't see it under NODs if it's not directly in your FOV, especially in mixed lighting environments as found in urban areas. Thus, passive aiming with either setup would give you additional obfuscation of your position compared to active aiming.

Most silencers will trip the autogate at the ranges you're talking about. I've done a lot of shooting innawoods with suppressed SBRs under nods and nothing you're saying makes any sense to me at all. Not even the best flash hiders on the market can even come close to the kind of performance you're talking about. Even the flash from my suppressed 20" 22lr is clearly visible under nods.

[Defaultmp3]

Most silencers will trip the autogate at the ranges you're talking about. I've done a lot of shooting innawoods with suppressed SBRs under nods and nothing you're saying makes any sense to me at all. Not even the best flash hiders on the market can even come close to the kind of performance you're talking about. Even the flash from my suppressed 20" 22lr is clearly visible under nods.

Right... you're shooting in the woods, which is going to be dealing with moonlight being the only source of illumination outside anything you bring yourself. I'm talking about operating in a mixed light environment, where there plenty of other white light (and possibly IR, whether it be from the judicious use of IR illumination by an opponent or from a modern security camera), while still also plenty of dark areas, particularly when maximizing the use of photonic barriers. I would wager this is also why you would think that an M600V is somehow a viable IR illuminator compared to the likes of a MAWL-C1+ or DBAL-D2, as it would appear you have a limited amount of experience in mixed lighting conditions.

[okie]

Right... you're shooting in the woods, which is going to be dealing with moonlight being the only source of illumination outside anything you bring yourself. I'm talking about operating in a mixed light environment, where there plenty of other white light (and possibly IR, whether it be from the judicious use of IR illumination by an opponent or from a modern security camera), while still also plenty of dark areas, particularly when maximizing the use of photonic barriers. I would wager this is also why you would think that an M600V is somehow a viable IR illuminator compared to the likes of a MAWL-C1+ or DBAL-D2, as it would appear you have a limited amount of experience in mixed lighting conditions.

You're twisting my words. What I tell people is that if they're going to buy a low power laser that the LED illuminators produce a better light and are adequate for the same range as their laser.

I also don't see how being in a mixed light environment, which I've done plenty of, changes anything. If you're suggesting the flash isn't as visible I can tell you right now that's false. One of the places I shoot has street lights mounted on the electric poles, and that does absolutely nothing to make the flash any less obvious, even from a distance.

[Defaultmp3]

You're twisting my words. What I tell people is that if they're going to buy a low power laser that the LED illuminators produce a better light and are adequate for the same range as their laser.

LEDs? Sure. M600V? Not really, it lacks any serious power behind it and no ability to focus, and can easily be overwhelmed in a mixed lighting condition where a more powerful illuminator paired with a 0.7 mW pointer can still do excellent work.

I also don't see how being in a mixed light environment, which I've done plenty of, changes anything. If you're suggesting the flash isn't as visible I can tell you right now that's false. One of the places I shoot has street lights mounted on the electric poles, and that does absolutely nothing to make the flash any less obvious, even from a distance.

If you don't know how it changes anything, then I have nothing more to say, as clearly you are not capable of understanding what I've written; I mean, did I not write multiple times that both Simunitions and suppressed live ammo have a visual signature that can be seen under NODs (and even the naked eye) when looking at them directly?

[okie]

LEDs? Sure. M600V? Not really, it lacks any serious power behind it and no ability to focus, and can easily be overwhelmed in a mixed lighting condition where a more powerful illuminator paired with a 0.7 mW pointer can still do excellent work.

If you don't know how it changes anything, then I have nothing more to say, as clearly you are not capable of understanding what I've written; I mean, did I not write multiple times that both Simunitions and suppressed live ammo have a visual signature that can be seen under NODs (and even the naked eye) when looking at them directly?

You said that the suppressed flash from an SBR firing 5.56 was the same as simunitions, and that's the claim you made I took exception to.

An M600V is fully capable within the practical range of a commercial power laser. Not only that, but the better contrast you get from the LED light actually improves the practical range over a laser illuminator. I'm not a big advocate for low power lasers, but if that's the route the person is going to go then the M600V is a very good option to pair with one.

[kwelz]

I have been away from the thread for a while because of work and other things. I appreciate all the advice and am trying to work through it to see what works best for me.

Currently here is what I have

This is kind of a Do Everything gun.
12.5 inch SBR
Eotech Exps3-0 with Magnifier. I may end up putting them on Unity mounts.
Surefire M600DF that will be replaced with a Modlite tomorrow.
ATPIAL-C. I actually missed the reply in here talking about the low power on the illuminator. I both like and hate it. I like it because indoors it will not wash everything out. However it is obviously useless out of doors and I am not a fan of this.

Ideally I would like someone to come out with an IR/White light head for dual fuel bodies. Then I could use that for outside longer range work and have the lower power of the ATPIAL-C for indoor use. Especially with the diffuser on.

I will also be running an M4-2000 once it gets back from Ecco Machine with the new mounting system.

Thoughts on this setup?

[vandal5]

I have been away from the thread for a while because of work and other things. I appreciate all the advice and am trying to work through it to see what works best for me.

Currently here is what I have

This is kind of a Do Everything gun.
12.5 inch SBR
Eotech Exps3-0 with Magnifier. I may end up putting them on Unity mounts.
Surefire M600DF that will be replaced with a Modlite tomorrow.
ATPIAL-C. I actually missed the reply in here talking about the low power on the illuminator. I both like and hate it. I like it because indoors it will not wash everything out. However it is obviously useless out of doors and I am not a fan of this.

Ideally I would like someone to come out with an IR/White light head for dual fuel bodies. Then I could use that for outside longer range work and have the lower power of the ATPIAL-C for indoor use. Especially with the diffuser on.

I will also be running an M4-2000 once it gets back from Ecco Machine with the new mounting system.

Thoughts on this setup?

Only thing I can think of is if you use the Unity Tactical riser will you be able to mount both you Eotech and magnifier on it? I didn't thi k it was long enough (I don't have one so it may be). Or is the mount for the magnifier adjustable enough to make it still work?

I got a YHM riser that I'm going to try (haven't made it out to the range yet this year) to rise up my 1/3rd mount.



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[mig1nc]

A micro magnifier works. This is from a friend of mine.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Defaultmp3]

Only thing I can think of is if you use the Unity Tactical riser will you be able to mount both you Eotech and magnifier on it? I didn't thi k it was long enough (I don't have one so it may be). Or is the mount for the magnifier adjustable enough to make it still work?

I got a YHM riser that I'm going to try (haven't made it out to the range yet this year) to rise up my 1/3rd mount.

He said "mounts", so I would assume he meant that he would be using both the riser and the FTC magnifier mount.

ATPIAL-C. I actually missed the reply in here talking about the low power on the illuminator. I both like and hate it. I like it because indoors it will not wash everything out. However it is obviously useless out of doors and I am not a fan of this.

Ideally I would like someone to come out with an IR/White light head for dual fuel bodies. Then I could use that for outside longer range work and have the lower power of the ATPIAL-C for indoor use. Especially with the diffuser on.

A dual spectrum light will likely not perform up to task outside, despite what others have claimed in this thread, particularly in challenging lighting conditions. The lack of adjustable focus and overall weakness of the output makes the M600V a compromise no matter how you spin it, even on the white light side, and I am very doubtful any newer models would feature updates outside of dual fuel. I've heard of arguments from Pressburg and Blowers as to the use of a SureFire dual spectrum, but only in very specific niches, primarily on NODs-oriented handguns.

I honestly would suggest dumping the ATPIAL-C and just getting another unit, if you can swing it. Bolting on another illuminator adds weight and complexity in switching, no matter how you spin it, while dual spectrum lights have shit specs and will also have switchology issues. Would it be workable? Sure. But it would be very far from optimal. The MAWL-C1+ remains the king for now, though with a 12.5", the switchology could get tricky, especially with a can in play, since it might be too far out on the handguard if you were going to try to minimize suppressor shadow. The DBAL-D2 would still be viable, as would grey market ATPIALs and LA-5s, possibly the Perst units if you feel like supporting the Russians. The new Phantom Hill CTF is also worth a peek, once it comes out.

Beyond that, train. Just basic stuff, like reloads and malfunctions clearance, under NODs. Now that you have limited FOV and DOF, it'll take a bit of time to get it right again, especially under stress.