Am I the only one starting to prefer iron sights?

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Yea that's just not true. I'm not trying to shave nanoseconds to win a comp or something here. Lots of dudes operated very operationally long before shot timers were even a thing, so if they got by without them somehow I think I can manage without them, as well.

Anybody who thinks Okie can be helped, or is capable of understanding facts, is fooling themselves. Titsonritz posts an extremely helpful video from Bill freaking Blowers and Okie let's us all know that Blowers has no idea what he's talking about.

Okie admits he doesn't measure how fast he can accurately shoot.
Okie admits he doesn't really shoot rifles past 25 yds.
Okie admits he doesn't even know when a red dot is turned on.
Okie admits that his shooting knowledge consists of shooting through the grass.
Okie admits he doesn't even push speed, he says he's too methodical.

The M4C of old would've eaten this thread up and kept in the shrine of stupid things.

What irritates me about this shit is that some poor majoke will stumble across this thread and might just think either:
M4C is clearly a Fudd forum, or....
Okie is so cocksure about his own ignorance that he must be right and therefore chat proven technology from the last 20 to 30 years doesn't work.

[georgeib]

Anybody who thinks Okie can be helped, or is capable of understanding facts, is fooling themselves. Titsonritz posts an extremely helpful video from Bill freaking Blowers and Okie let's us all know that Blowers has no idea what he's talking about.

Okie admits he doesn't measure how fast he can accurately shoot.
Okie admits he doesn't really shoot rifles past 25 yds.
Okie admits he doesn't even know when a red dot is turned on.
Okie admits that his shooting knowledge consists of shooting through the grass.
Okie admits he doesn't even push speed, he says he's too methodical.

The M4C of old would've eaten this thread up and kept in the shrine of stupid things.

What irritates me about this shit is that some poor majoke will stumble across this thread and might just think either:
M4C is clearly a Fudd forum, or....
Okie is so cocksure about his own ignorance that he must be right and therefore chat proven technology from the last 20 to 30 years doesn't work.

I miss Will Larson.

[Inkslinger]

I miss Will Larson.

I don’t know, I think some Jsantoro would go best with this thread. Either would compliment it nicely though…

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I don’t know, I think some Jsantoro would go best with this thread. Either would compliment it nicely though…

My thoughts exactly. Id also love to hear from some of the old heavy hitters, some who left, some who passed on. Will, Pat Rogers, Jason Falla, Kyle Defoor, Larry Vickers, etc. But then again, back when the SME's were big here, we hashed this exact topic out with obstinate, obtuse, and ignorant posters too many times to count.

[AndyLate]

Ill give you some insider info as I was there from the switch from irons to red dots in a front line infantry unit. Qual scores and hits in training went up.

Same effect in non-Combat Arms units, perhaps even more pronounced (happened a bit later, of course).

I spend 20+ years shooting high Sharpshooter or Expert with iron-sight M-16s in the military, plus enough CQB drills to be fairly quick. I never looked back after shooting with my first M68 or buying my first red-dot, an AP PRO. My main ARs wear optics, and my HD gun has a red dot and BUIS.

I like shooting an AR with irons and have a couple that are "irons only". I would never try to argue that they are as fast or accurate when it really matters.

Andy

[SteyrAUG]

Anybody who thinks Okie can be helped, or is capable of understanding facts, is fooling themselves. Titsonritz posts an extremely helpful video from Bill freaking Blowers and Okie let's us all know that Blowers has no idea what he's talking about.

Okie admits he doesn't measure how fast he can accurately shoot.
Okie admits he doesn't really shoot rifles past 25 yds.
Okie admits he doesn't even know when a red dot is turned on.
Okie admits that his shooting knowledge consists of shooting through the grass.
Okie admits he doesn't even push speed, he says he's too methodical.

The M4C of old would've eaten this thread up and kept in the shrine of stupid things.

What irritates me about this shit is that some poor majoke will stumble across this thread and might just think either:
M4C is clearly a Fudd forum, or....
Okie is so cocksure about his own ignorance that he must be right and therefore chat proven technology from the last 20 to 30 years doesn't work.

I wouldn't worry about any of that.

Okie is clearly not a competitive shooter, I don't believe he uses firearms in the course of employment in any kind of law enforcement, isn't current military or any of those things.

He has defined his experience and his needs, which seem to be short distance home defense. Given his age and experience with irons vs. rds it's not surprising that he has decided to stay comfortable with what he knows.

More importantly, he's not saying HE is better with irons than other people are with RDS. I suspect that anyone who is any kind of competitive shooter would regularly school him. And it isn't that Okie is wrong so much that he is an anomaly. For his needs, what he is doing works. He would probably spend a year working with RDS just to get to the point where he is at currently with irons, given his situation, is that a practical thing to do?

Now if he was 21 years old, it would be a much different conversation. We also don't have to dogpile anyone who does things that are out of the current norm. I don't think I ever saw him say he was better than anyone else, I saw him ASK if anyone else was still more comfortable with irons.

And not only is it a legit question to ask, it has more than one correct answer.

There is a current trend towards RDS on handguns. I think eventually mounts and setups will become practical enough that it will become the norm and traditional handgun sights will be views similar to BUIS on carbines today. But I don't think I'm going to be jumping on that trend because when it finally becomes viable, for me, it will also not be worth changing everything.

Weapon lights are a good example of what I'm talking about. They existed back in the 1980s before HK put the first UTL rails on Mark 23s and USPs back in 1994. The mounting systems sucked, the lights sucked and the Laser Systems (later to become SureFire) MP5 lighted handguards were pretty shitty. I remember seeing some bungee cord crap for putting a light on a revolver.

Even the HK UTL left a lot to be desired and it was designed from the beginning to improve the situation. Eventually SureFire would get us their with rail mounted lights and things like the 300 for handguns. This was a game changer for me and I went from "this is f'ing nonsense" in the 1980s to "no way I'd ever NOT have a weapon light" by the late 90s.

We have definitely arrived at the RDS on most carbines as a viable and dependable sighting system to the point that I explored and incorporated it even though I had four decades of "shooting irons" and a bit of a transition / learning period. I don't have a RDS on everything, but my key firearms all have Eos or C mores.

I finally (about 5 years late) got my first LPVO (1-8x) because I realized that my 16" carbines can do more than I'm currently doing with them with standard irons or 1x RDS. And even though tube optics aren't my preferred ideal, I'm seeing if I can make it work to the point that it has more benefit than detraction. It's great to be able to range out past 200 with middle age eyes, it's rapid target acquisition at close range on 1x that is my weak area. But I'm working on it.

Let's also remember there was a time when projected red dots were "it" and if you weren't using them, you were an old fuddy duddy. RDS has made them almost obsolete, except of course for IR lasers combined with NV which is an entirely different discussion.

[alx01]

i like to shoot iron sights. I think it's still fun.
I prefer LPVO over irons and red-dot sights due to vision.

For under 25m with a rifle, if you're doing fast A/C, and certainly D-zone shooting and not a precision shooting; in my experience you can get quite good with a point shooting. For even shorter distances you'll be much faster than most sighting methods. Again this is with a long gun, not a handgun.

Larry Vickers has a video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvUvLDiBMh0

[C-grunt]

The hilarious part is he thinks he knows what he is talking about and obviously everyone else is wrong.

Of course he knows better than the lessons learned 9ver the past 20 years of combat.

[ViniVidivici]

Well when you have a lot of people saying things that don't mesh with reality...you know, makes you start to wonder.

"Pot, this is kettle, over".

You need formal training.

You need time on a KD range .

You know not of what you speak.

[Jermedic]

Over the last few years I have been doing a lot more range time with irons and have gotten pretty good on my 20in Colt. I also shoot long range with irons with my black powder rifles. Being good with irons is a great skill to have, but my serious AR and carry gun have red dots because they are just so much faster for me, especially without my glasses. Im aboubt 1/3 faster on the timer with a red dot on either vs irons. I am just getting into the LPVO game and so far that is working out well with my astigmatism as well.