Am I the only one starting to prefer iron sights?

[SteyrAUG]

Well said. I make no pretense that I wouldn't get absolutely destroyed in any kind of competitive event, regardless of whether I were using irons or a dot. I just think it's ridiculous that people can't separate that idea from practical home defense, and the need to have a gun that's ready to grab and go without fiddling with knobs. I mean seriously, when did gun culture shift from practical self defense to this hypebeast tier one operator mentality?

What I've learned is that red dots aren't very reliable in real world conditions, in terms of being able to see the dot. Even if you adjust it beforehand to match the lighting, that can change rapidly. The sun can come out from behind a cloud, for example, or you could find yourself aiming from down in a dark holler up into bright sunlight. These are things I've personally experienced using my equipment in my own home, so I'm not going to be lectured or browbeat into denying something I know to be factual from my own experience.

But the reality is you don't have that luxury to begin with. Whatever setting the dot is on is the setting you're gonna roll with if you ever need to use that gun. And if it's adjusted for daytime use, it's going to be a red wash in low light. And if it's adjusted for low light, you won't be able to even see it during the day (and be completely screwed if you don't have irons).

I've also learned that irons can be used extremely effectively. You can learn to use them in close quarters with both eyes open and feel as confident with them as you do with a dot. Maybe I'm a tiny bit slower with them, I don't know. But like I said many times, shaving a tenth of a second isn't what I'm talking about here. If the difference is so small as to be imperceptible, that's simply not important to me. What's important to me is knowing that I can grab my rifle and use it effectively any time of day or night, without having to adjust anything, do some weird 45 degree offset thing, etc.

You would probably have a lot less debate if you caveat these things with "FOR YOU" X seems to work better.

You also need to keep in mind that 99% of this forum started with RDS are transitioned to RDS a long time ago, for them RDS is their iron sights and they use RDS with the same ease that you use irons and they can't even philosophically comprehend anyone who can't do it.

Also anyone who is MIL / LE or anything like that has training and experience that is about conforming to a team standard that EVERYONE is using. Everything is the same, everyone doing it the same way.

So it's fine to ask these questions, you just need a few stated qualifiers. Sounds like eye sight is your biggest limitation that you are trying to work around. That needs to be your starting point for these discussions.

And finally, you can't just say "X is faster than Y" because it seems that way to you. Perception is subjective. You have to actually test X against Y under controlled conditions and you can't just do it the one time and declare yourself correct. Some of these guys live under split timers so if you are gonna make statements that sound definitive, you need repeatable data to support it.

Otherwise it's you and me talking about what makes us fast swimmers but doing it on a forum full of Olympic swimmers. What you and I may do might be "best all things considered for us" but in that crowd, it will be 90% inefficient technique that will simply be viewed as wrong. And it isn't so much that you and I are wrong...we are just in a different lane and we need to be mindful of the difference.

I've been to plenty of workshops and seminars where I was the old guy doing it the old way. I try and still do these things because there is always something to pick up, even if I only adopt 20% of what is presented, that is still new and useful stuff that I wasn't aware of or completely understanding beforehand. And so long as I'm generally keeping up, I'm doing ok.

[okie]

Honestly, to me using a red dot/reflex sight is almost like cheating. I have taken several carbine courses where we shot in various unconventional positions (laying on my back, stomach, side, sitting in a vehicle, etc…) and making fast, accurate shots was easy with a RD sight since no sight alignment was needed. Didn’t even need a cheek weld, just point and shoot. That being said, I do co-witness.

That's a valid point. Definitely worth keeping the dot just for that alone. Of course much of that depends on window size, so that's a whole different discussion worth having on its own, is whether these micro red dots finding their way onto ARs are worth it or not. You only save an ounce or two, and lose a lot of capability in terms of being able to shoot from awkward positions.

[okie]

Please quantify your own "long experience". You certainly didn't show much of any when talking about NODs-oriented rifles.
How strange, then, that the vast majority of folks have found that brightness adjustment is a largely a non-issue for the last twenty years. Sure, it may not be optimal to use daylight settings at night, but it's hardly impossible, and is perfectly serviceable. Please give me a realistic example of where a daylight setting is not useable when paired with a decent WML and you also do not have enough time to turn down the brightness.
How do you measure proficiency without any timed standards? Also, I don't think you understand what a "hypebeast" is, so please stop using that term.
Have you tried this outside of standing up square? Perhaps after sprinting a couple hundred yards? Or maybe with an injured arm? Maybe trying to hold a hallway while minimizing your profile or under a vehicle? Addition of kit? Shooting on the move?

Yea I remember you now. You're the guy who said silencers reduced 556 flash down to simunitions level. And you were all over my ass for saying an M600V was a good illuminator for low power lasers. You're just one of those people who thinks everyone not doing things 100% your way is automatically wrong.

[okie]

You would probably have a lot less debate if you caveat these things with "FOR YOU" X seems to work better.

You also need to keep in mind that 99% of this forum started with RDS are transitioned to RDS a long time ago, for them RDS is their iron sights and they use RDS with the same ease that you use irons and they can't even philosophically comprehend anyone who can't do it.

Also anyone who is MIL / LE or anything like that has training and experience that is about conforming to a team standard that EVERYONE is using. Everything is the same, everyone doing it the same way.

So it's fine to ask these questions, you just need a few stated qualifiers. Sounds like eye sight is your biggest limitation that you are trying to work around. That needs to be your starting point for these discussions.

And finally, you can't just say "X is faster than Y" because it seems that way to you. Perception is subjective. You have to actually test X against Y under controlled conditions and you can't just do it the one time and declare yourself correct. Some of these guys live under split timers so if you are gonna make statements that sound definitive, you need repeatable data to support it.

Otherwise it's you and me talking about what makes us fast swimmers but doing it on a forum full of Olympic swimmers. What you and I may do might be "best all things considered for us" but in that crowd, it will be 90% inefficient technique that will simply be viewed as wrong. And it isn't so much that you and I are wrong...we are just in a different lane and we need to be mindful of the difference.

I've been to plenty of workshops and seminars where I was the old guy doing it the old way. I try and still do these things because there is always something to pick up, even if I only adopt 20% of what is presented, that is still new and useful stuff that I wasn't aware of or completely understanding beforehand. And so long as I'm generally keeping up, I'm doing ok.

Well I posed a question, explained it from my own personal perspective, and then proceeded to get the inquisition as if I just suggested the earth rotates around the sun. When people react that strongly and discourteously to a mere question, I find they're most often not the kind of people worth listening to.

ETA: BTW, I didn't realize that cowitnessed irons were now considered "wrong." I thought the sage advice was still cowitnessed irons with dots and flip ups with magnified optics. So that was news to me to be scolded for having my dot cowitnessed with fixed irons.

[Defaultmp3]

You're the guy who said silencers reduced 556 flash down to simunitions level.

No, I said it was comparable from a signature reduction POV in the context of passive aiming against targets that do not have you in their POV.

And you were all over my ass for saying an M600V was a good illuminator for low power lasers.

You said:

The M600 can pretty much match any range the commercial power lasers are capable of reaching, and they produce a much more useful light, and of course double as white lights.

This is simply not the case. Can the OTAL-C/CQBL-1 conjoined with an M600V be serviceable? Absolutely. Does the M600V match any range a Class 1 IR pointer can be used? Absolutely not. It cannot focus and it lacks overall output (both white and IR); the MAWL-C1+ or DBAL-D2 almost never wash out their pointers, while being able to bring to bear much more IR output downrange for illumination. I find it ironic that you complain about daylight settings on an RDS is too bright for use even with WMLs, but then use an M600V in conjunction with a ATPIAL pointer in high output mode.

You're just one of those people who thinks everyone not doing things 100% your way is automatically wrong.

0/3 so far. In fact, I would mildly discourage people from doing some of things I do.

Any actual responses to my questions in the previous post in this thread? Have you considered the fairly uniform strong response an indicator of just off-base you are, considering that you have provided zero quantifiable data (i.e., lack of any measurable standards)?

[WillieThom]

I do understand where Okie is coming from with regard to both eyes open, proper alignment, etc. as it is how I imagine many, if not all of us shoot everything (irons, RDS, LPVO, etc.) as well.

I understand that maybe he does feel as though he is just as fast and just as capable with irons only.

But I would also bet if he put it on a timer, his speed and/or accuracy with a red dot sight vs. without would be noticeable because a RDS is objectively and provably faster than an irons only gun, given the same skill level.

But if he decides a tenth or two of a second will not make a difference in his case, perhaps he is right. Maybe timers don’t matter and all of the professional high level shooters, of which he does not think their skills are applicable to his situation, are wrong.



Also… I have actually considered setting up a very basic irons only carbine (think 6920 w/ carry handle or LMT rear sight) with a Modlite OKW as a home defense option. With my home defense distances, in my specific case, I would feel more than confident in being fast enough on the trigger, as well as accurate enough without feeling undergunned with an irons only carbine and good weaponlight.

But then I realize…. Why? Why would I want less capability, if that dark day comes when it is not only my life but the lives of others on the line?

[okie]

No, I said it was comparable from a signature reduction POV in the context of passive aiming against targets that do not have you in their POV.

You said:

This is simply not the case. Can the OTAL-C/CQBL-1 conjoined with an M600V be serviceable? Absolutely. Does the M600V match any range a Class 1 IR pointer can be used? Absolutely not. It cannot focus and it lacks overall output (both white and IR); the MAWL-C1+ or DBAL-D2 almost never wash out their pointers, while being able to bring to bear much more IR output downrange for illumination. I find it ironic that you complain about daylight settings on an RDS is too bright for use even with WMLs, but then use an M600V in conjunction with a ATPIAL pointer in high output mode.

0/3 so far. In fact, I would mildly discourage people from doing some of things I do.

Any actual responses to my questions in the previous post in this thread? Have you considered the fairly uniform strong response an indicator of just off-base you are, considering that you have provided zero quantifiable data (i.e., lack of any measurable standards)?

As I stated, I don't have any experience with the OTAL. But I've been told by many, many people that the OTAL is indistinguishable from just about any full power laser on low. And I do have a lot of experience with PEQs on low and an M600V. Whenever I'm shooting at or around anything potentially reflective at close range, I put the PEQ on low and put the safety screw in. Can I see the laser on certain surfaces further out? Well yea. I can shine it at a wall 300 yards away and see it. But that's a lot different than trying to actually engage a target at that range. Particularly if said target isn't just standing out in the open. Big difference between aiming it at a flat target square to you, vs. trying to find the laser and place it on a 3 dimensional object hiding behind cover. IR lasers are no different than visible lasers in that regard. To get any serious range out of them you need that solid beam from a high power laser. Otherwise, practically speaking, you're looking at close quarters only.

Disclaimer: That's my opinion based on my own personal experience.

[SteyrAUG]

Well I posed a question, explained it from my own personal perspective, and then proceeded to get the inquisition as if I just suggested the earth rotates around the sun. When people react that strongly and discourteously to a mere question, I find they're most often not the kind of people worth listening to.

ETA: BTW, I didn't realize that cowitnessed irons were now considered "wrong." I thought the sage advice was still cowitnessed irons with dots and flip ups with magnified optics. So that was news to me to be scolded for having my dot cowitnessed with fixed irons.

Just trying to help. I know from experience when it seems everyone is piling on that sometimes people get defensive rather than restate the qualifiers at work.

Sorta like how you just got triggered a "little bit" over the co witness thing. I actually covered this in a earlier post on this thread. If everything is correctly lined up, you will have a co witness, but once things get moving that RDS is gonna move across the EO field, especially if you are in any kind of unconventional shooting position.

There are also people who run their RDS above their irons because their fixed sights won't fold or whatever and they don't want their field of view obstructed by iron sights. So they end up with something like the 1/3 over sight picture you get with most RDS sights on AK rifles. For me personally, that would drive me nuts, especially trying to arrive at a correct zero, but people seem to be able to do it.

[okie]

I do understand where Okie is coming from with regard to both eyes open, proper alignment, etc. as it is how I imagine many, if not all of us shoot everything (irons, RDS, LPVO, etc.) as well.

I understand that maybe he does feel as though he is just as fast and just as capable with irons only.

But I would also bet if he put it on a timer, his speed and/or accuracy with a red dot sight vs. without would be noticeable because a RDS is objectively and provably faster than an irons only gun, given the same skill level.

But if he decides a tenth or two of a second will not make a difference in his case, perhaps he is right. Maybe timers don’t matter and all of the professional high level shooters, of which he does not think their skills are applicable to his situation, are wrong.



Also… I have actually considered setting up a very basic irons only carbine (think 6920 w/ carry handle or LMT rear sight) with a Modlite OKW as a home defense option. With my home defense distances, in my specific case, I would feel more than confident in being fast enough on the trigger, as well as accurate enough without feeling undergunned with an irons only carbine and good weaponlight.

But then I realize…. Why? Why would I want less capability, if that dark day comes when it is not only my life but the lives of others on the line?

That depends greatly. In certain lighting, depending on the color of the target, I'm perceptibly slower with the RDS, because I have trouble finding the dot. This is most pronounced in bright sunlight, with a freshly painted target, in which case I'm much faster with the irons, because the black front sight contrasts with the white target so well.

See that's another thing most people don't take into account. Red is very difficult to see against certain colors, especially in bright light. Any light colored object really. So whites, grays, light blues, pinks, etc. And that not only applies to the color clothes the target is wearing, but also to anything they happen to be using as cover.

It also applies to dry weeds. It's not as bad as some things, but dots tend to get washed out by the straw colored weeds on my property, as well as the light colored tree bark. So anyone using brush for cover in the fall through spring (and actually sometimes in the summer if we're having a draught, which is usually), it's hard to find that dot sometimes.

[Defaultmp3]

As I stated, I don't have any experience with the OTAL. But I've been told by many, many people that the OTAL is indistinguishable from just about any full power laser on low. And I do have a lot of experience with PEQs on low and an M600V. Whenever I'm shooting at or around anything potentially reflective at close range, I put the PEQ on low and put the safety screw in. Can I see the laser on certain surfaces further out? Well yea. I can shine it at a wall 300 yards away and see it. But that's a lot different than trying to actually engage a target at that range. Particularly if said target isn't just standing out in the open. Big difference between aiming it at a flat target square to you, vs. trying to find the laser and place it on a 3 dimensional object hiding behind cover. IR lasers are no different than visible lasers in that regard. To get any serious range out of them you need that solid beam from a high power laser. Otherwise, practically speaking, you're looking at close quarters only.

Disclaimer: That's my opinion based on my own personal experience.

Here's the problem: your experience. You rarely quantify what your experience is, and what you little you do divulge sounds like it's purely informal, and of limited scope, even if you have a lot of it. As evidenced here; the main draw of having a much more powerful illuminator than an M600V isn't so that you can push out the range, but so that you can better defeat photonic barriers in challenging lighting conditions. High power units for longer ranges is of relatively limited use for the most part simply due to PID issues CONUS.

This experience issue seems to spill into the RDS/irons thread, where you might have had a lot of time on a certain method or technique, but you've only been exposed to a limited set of scenarios.

If you have no quantifiable data, and offer little by way of formal experience/coursework, and then hew against the orthodoxy, well, this is what happens.