Am I the only one starting to prefer iron sights?

[SteyrAUG]

When I was active on the TAC team I had several deputies that preferred absolute co witness. They were trying to line up all 4 points because they had never been taught any other way. I know there are many that prefer this set up but ususally it's with flip ups in the down position or a shooter that allows the FSB to ghost. Along with a timer and forcing them to use a 1/3 co witness carbine they quickly discovered that lining up the target and dot was far preferred, much faster in many different training evolutions.

You're handicapping yourself if you're lining up more than 2 points. Also when you say you always shoot with both eyes open I would ask if you've ever shot out to several hundred yards, or meters in this manner? I've seen very few that were able to do this at long range with any accuracy or consistency. Just as many here, myself included include irons only shooting, long range should also be trained on. It really shows your weaknesses as far as technique goes.

There are lots of opinions and various schools of thought on shooting tecnique but some are just wrong. Listen to those that have went before you and learn from them.

If you are using a holo sight and you adopt any unconventional shooting posture you aren't going to maintain that co witness anyway. If you are roll over prone and shooting under a vehicle your red dot is probably gonna be in the upper corner of your screen anyway.

To me co witness is just a starting point of reference and depending upon my target and available light I will use irons OR the red dot depending upon which one presents itself to me FIRST. Under different conditions they will present to me in different ways. About 25-30% of the time they both present to me equally and I don't think about it too much, I just take the shot.

Obviously if I have to shoot sideways from behind some crappy low wall the RDS is going to be my priority sight. If I go inside from outside and my brightness on the RDS is turned way down but I have a weapon light on, then I'm probably running irons until I get a chance to adjust.

[Inkslinger]

I have. I'm about the same.

I'm slowest with "in the tube" red dots like Aimpoints and Acogs. Finding my target in the scope and then doing transitions is time consuming for me.

Open red dots like Eotechs are much faster for me and they are my preferred red dot setup.

Daylight irons are about the same as open red dots like Eos but I'm slower at night trying to get a sight picture with irons.

However, irons with a bright weapon light (1,000 lumens) is the absolute fastest setup for me. Target distinction (shoot vs no shoot) and hard silhouette of sights is how I function best.

Weapon light with open red dots sights is almost the same but slightly slower, at least for me. My problem is I tend to look at the red dot and not the target.

Do you think that’s more due to the ring on the eotech? I can’t imagine it’s the size of the glass between the two. For me, I as my eyes age, I’m starting to like the eotech over my Aimpoints for the very reason of the outer ring. I have an eotech on a cz scorpion micro, and I manly use the ring for all my shots unless I’m going for a very accurate shot then I’ll use the dot. I might have to put it on one of my rifles and see if there is a quantifiable difference

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Well with low effort posts like this, I guess it's no wonder.

LOLOLOL

Okay Okie,

You can feel however you want about red dots verse irons. I don't care. But the FACT of the matter is that red dots are superior in nearly every way to iron sights: whether that's for target focus, human physiology, human psychology, speed, precision, etc. How could I possibly know this? Well, I shoot guns alot, I go to real trainings, and I own a handy-dandy little timer that tells me what's what.

I'm sure I made this argument back in 2010 so I am so sick of typing it in 2022.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Or maybe I just inadvertently got really good at using irons since they were cowitnessed?

I also said precisely nothing whatsoever about learning to shoot with irons. I got a red dot when I was in my early 20s when I got my first AR and never looked back, so effectively I did pretty much learn defensive shooting with an RDS from day one. Before that my only experience with irons was a 22 I got at about 10, and a shotgun I got at about 14.

Or maybe not. You literally are not using a red dot correctly and are somehow arguing that your irons are better. Bro.

[Renegade04]

I have been shooting with iron sights for over 55 years. To me, that is one of the fundamentals that people need to do. Optics cannot always be depended upon and that is why proficiency with iron sights is a must. Even my ARs with optics have BUISs and they are there for a very good reason. You lose use of your optic and iron sights can keep you in the fight.

[okie]

When I was active on the TAC team I had several deputies that preferred absolute co witness. They were trying to line up all 4 points because they had never been taught any other way. I know there are many that prefer this set up but ususally it's with flip ups in the down position or a shooter that allows the FSB to ghost. Along with a timer and forcing them to use a 1/3 co witness carbine they quickly discovered that lining up the target and dot was far preferred, much faster in many different training evolutions.

I used to feel the same way, but now lining up just kind of happens. When I bring the gun up, my sight picture is already there. I would also argue that this has made me a better shooter because it's taught me to get down the gun and square behind the dot, which will hypothetically help with parallax. It's easy to get lazy with the solo dot and develop bad technique, and good technique is way more important to me at this stage than shaving split seconds.

You're handicapping yourself if you're lining up more than 2 points. Also when you say you always shoot with both eyes open I would ask if you've ever shot out to several hundred yards, or meters in this manner? I've seen very few that were able to do this at long range with any accuracy or consistency. Just as many here, myself included include irons only shooting, long range should also be trained on. It really shows your weaknesses as far as technique goes.

I do keep both eyes open, even with magnified optics. I've found that squinting to close one eye makes me pull shots. I've never shot past 100 yards.

There are lots of opinions and various schools of thought on shooting tecnique but some are just wrong. Listen to those that have went before you and learn from them.

Those are just opinions, and they change every ten years. Ten years ago cowitnessed red dots with fixed irons was all the rage. Ten years before that the military wouldn't let anyone even tough an optic before they were shooting expert with irons. Granted some of that thinking was too anal retentive, but I think the consequence of that is that now things have gone too far in the other direction.

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[okie]

I have. I'm about the same.

I'm slowest with "in the tube" red dots like Aimpoints and Acogs. Finding my target in the scope and then doing transitions is time consuming for me.

Open red dots like Eotechs are much faster for me and they are my preferred red dot setup.

Daylight irons are about the same as open red dots like Eos but I'm slower at night trying to get a sight picture with irons.

However, irons with a bright weapon light (1,000 lumens) is the absolute fastest setup for me. Target distinction (shoot vs no shoot) and hard silhouette of sights is how I function best.

Weapon light with open red dots sights is almost the same but slightly slower, at least for me. My problem is I tend to look at the red dot and not the target.

Interesting! I've never timed myself, but I feel like I'm about the same. I mostly focus on being methodical more than fast, and making sure that my technique is solid all the way through. I set up targets around my property and practice using the terrain as cover and shooting through gaps in the grass and stuff like that. It's a lot different than just standing on a firing line and shooting at a target. A lot of the time you don't even have eyes on the target because you're shooting through the weeds. That's one thing I practiced a lot this fall was approaching the target until I could see its head, then getting low and taking the shot through the weeds using the terrain as cover and weeds as concealment. If, upon seeing the threat, you simply crouch down in a normal stance, you instantly conceal yourself and have shots on steel before that hypothetical person could walk forward enough to get you back in their sights. Then you can go to kneeling and be completely covered by the terrain, retreat to cover under concealment, etc. VERY good skill to have because in any realistic scenario there's always that moment where you encounter the threat, and if you have that technique down then you don't necessarily have to be faster on the draw. If that other person hasn't practiced that they're going to either shoot wildly in your general direction, run away to cover, or try and advance on you to get you in their sights.

I just don't feel like a shot timer is really applicable to that kind of thing. I'm not even really sure how you would use it in those scenarios. The whole point of the drill is that you yourself are surprised when you see the target. I mean of course you know approximately where it is, but you change it up so that exact moment when it becomes visible isn't predictable to you. The foliage changes so much throughout the seasons and just moving the targets a little bit or approaching from a slightly different angle means you get a lot of mileage out of it.

[okie]

Or maybe not. You literally are not using a red dot correctly and are somehow arguing that your irons are better. Bro.

How am I not using the red dot correctly???

[okie]

If you are using a holo sight and you adopt any unconventional shooting posture you aren't going to maintain that co witness anyway. If you are roll over prone and shooting under a vehicle your red dot is probably gonna be in the upper corner of your screen anyway.

To me co witness is just a starting point of reference and depending upon my target and available light I will use irons OR the red dot depending upon which one presents itself to me FIRST. Under different conditions they will present to me in different ways. About 25-30% of the time they both present to me equally and I don't think about it too much, I just take the shot.

Obviously if I have to shoot sideways from behind some crappy low wall the RDS is going to be my priority sight. If I go inside from outside and my brightness on the RDS is turned way down but I have a weapon light on, then I'm probably running irons until I get a chance to adjust.

I can relate to 100% of this. I think the disconnect is that half the people in this thread are shooting at public ranges under very controlled conditions, and the other half...maybe not shooting much at all. Maybe reading a bunch of tactical magazines and watching a lot of youtube.

[17K]

I would say that generally or practically, yeah, you’re the only one.

I train primarily for CQ/structure work and have moved away from irons altogether and run Aimpoints at 1.93” because the disadvantages of having the optic low enough to use the irons through it brings disadvantages with no advantages.

The vast majority of people who come through my place are running optics at lower 1/3 - 2.2” and nobody bothers with irons as they’re back-ups and just not really relevant anymore. Outside of some issued garbage I haven’t seen an irons only long gun in awhile, irons only handguns are quickly being eradicated by mrds.