Am I the only one starting to prefer iron sights?

[okie]

Here's the problem: your experience. You rarely quantify what your experience is, and what you little you do divulge sounds like it's purely informal, and of limited scope, even if you have a lot of it. As evidenced here; the main draw of having a much more powerful illuminator than an M600V isn't so that you can push out the range, but so that you can better defeat photonic barriers in challenging lighting conditions. High power units for longer ranges is of relatively limited use for the most part simply due to PID issues CONUS.

This experience issue seems to spill into the RDS/irons thread, where you might have had a lot of time on a certain method or technique, but you've only been exposed to a limited set of scenarios.

If you have no quantifiable data, and offer little by way of formal experience/coursework, and then hew against the orthodoxy, well, this is what happens.

See I would argue the opposite. I think a big part of the disconnect here is that people aren't aware of the limitations I've addressed because they haven't been exposed to enough scenarios to realize what they are. I.e. they're on a firing line shooting at targets of a certain color, that are unobstructed and facing square to them. And they're adjusting their dots prior to shooting, and probably adjusting them continuously if lighting conditions change (which they probably don't). Under those conditions I have zero difficulty understanding why they think dots are the end all be all, as opposed to just another layer on top of the irons.

Vs on my property I have targets set up that are all different colors, in different lighting conditions, and even some at different angles where the dot from a laser isn't just going to magically form this perfect circle as if you're aiming at a brick wall. And some of the targets are out in the open, while others are behind trees or in the weeds to simulate someone behind cover/concealment. VASTLY different than shooting at standard silhouettes at the range.

And I don't know about photonic barriers, but what I can tell you from using my PEQ on low (and my PAQ before that) is that range is limited to close quarters when you're talking about aiming at more organic targets in a more natural setting. Vs aiming at a silhouette target that's squarely facing you, standing out in the open. People simply don't do that. They're going to be behind cover, and that laser is going to get all chewed up passing through weeds, windows, etc. And even if they were standing out in the open, you're still talking about a 3d object, where the laser isn't just going to form that perfect blob like it does against a flat background that's perpendicular to it. It gets lost in their kit, folds in their clothes, etc. To reliably be able to engage real targets in real world conditions you really need that solid beam if you want to go out very far. I'm just saying if I know my laser is going to be limited in range then I don't see any point spending thousands of dollars on a long range illuminator. In my own personal experience I find an M600V is adequate for those ranges, and I highly doubt I'm the only one because I see lots of products being made for them in terms of paring them with low power lasers.

[Defaultmp3]

See I would argue the opposite. I think a big part of the disconnect here is that people aren't aware of the limitations I've addressed because they haven't been exposed to enough scenarios to realize what they are. I.e. they're on a firing line shooting at targets of a certain color, that are unobstructed and facing square to them. And they're adjusting their dots prior to shooting, and probably adjusting them continuously if lighting conditions change (which they probably don't). Under those conditions I have zero difficulty understanding why they think dots are the end all be all, as opposed to just another layer on top of the irons.

Uh... pretty sure most of these guys are talking about how they've found RDSes to be far superior for practical fighting based off of operational experience, not flat-range training.

And I don't know about photonic barriers, but what I can tell you from using my PEQ on low (and my PAQ before that) is that range is limited to close quarters when you're talking about aiming at more organic targets in a more natural setting. Vs aiming at a silhouette target that's squarely facing you, standing out in the open. People simply don't do that. They're going to be behind cover, and that laser is going to get all chewed up passing through weeds, windows, etc. And even if they were standing out in the open, you're still talking about a 3d object, where the laser isn't just going to form that perfect blob like it does against a flat background that's perpendicular to it. It gets lost in their kit, folds in their clothes, etc. To reliably be able to engage real targets in real world conditions you really need that solid beam if you want to go out very far. I'm just saying if I know my laser is going to be limited in range then I don't see any point spending thousands of dollars on a long range illuminator.

Yes, you have made it abundantly clear you don't know much about that side of fighting with NODs, that's the problem. You're utilizing your experience in a primarily rural environment, which seems decently solid, but then you generalize your limited experiences to all scenarios, with zero qualifiers on what environments it works best in. That's the disconnect, and again, it shows up with your RDS/irons argument; sure, you've put in some more interesting non-flat-range targets that makes for a good experiment in contrast and the like, but you make zero mention of any other variables, such as unorthodox shooting positions, dealing with movers, shooting on the move, fatigue/injuries, etc.

In my own personal experience I find an M600V is adequate for those ranges, and I highly doubt I'm the only one because I see lots of products being made for them in terms of paring them with low power lasers.

Lots of products? Such as? I'm aware of one or two, but can't say I know of lots. The allure of the ECHO Arms ILM is that it's lower profile, lighter weight, and cheaper than a DBAL-D2, not that it's a superior product in terms of raw performance. Again, is it a good enough setup? Mission drives gear, but you can do a decent amount of work for it. But to claim that one cannot take advantage of the far superior illuminators of the DBAL-D2 or MAWL-C1+ even though they are still stuck with a 0.7 mW pointer is patently wrong.

Anyway, my original questions to this thread still stand, so until those answers come out, I really don't have much to add. Can one prefer irons to RDS? Sure. That's just personal preference. Can one shoot irons better than RDS? Absolutely, that's just a function of how much practice one has. Can irons be good enough for a specific situation, including home defense? Sure. But to say that irons generally offer better performance than an RDS on a rifle for practical self-defense purposes remains fairly ridiculous by most measures.

[ubet]

Threads like this really puts it into perspective how this site has changed. When I joined this site in 2011, this thread would have went like this.

“Here’s an experiment I didn’t on buis vs RDS”
“I did a comparison of my ability to shoot iron sights vs RDS. Here are my times and targets using both. My conclusion is X”

It would be discussed and some other members would do their own testing. Now it’s just, “I say this or that with nothing to substantiate my claim, and if you don’t agree with me go pound sand.”

It’s really started to become tos. I haven’t been here long as most, but I’ve noticed it in my time around here


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[okie]

Uh... pretty sure most of these guys are talking about how they've found RDSes to be far superior for practical fighting based off of operational experience, not flat-range training. I don't know about most, but obviously some. But that's part of my point is that they have the luxury of always adjusting their dot prior to going outside the wire, as opposed to being woken up by someone kicking their door in.

Yes, you have made it abundantly clear you don't know much about that side of fighting with NODs, that's the problem. You're utilizing your experience in a primarily rural environment, I have a place in town and I've tested my equipment there, too. I can't let actual rounds fly, but I can verify the visibility/viability of a laser on different targets at different ranges. I pretty regularly go on night hikes with my nods.
which seems decently solid, but then you generalize your limited experiences to all scenarios, with zero qualifiers on what environments it works best in. That's the disconnect, and again, it shows up with your RDS/irons argument; sure, you've put in some more interesting non-flat-range targets that makes for a good experiment in contrast and the like, but you make zero mention of any other variables, such as unorthodox shooting positions, dealing with movers, shooting on the move, fatigue/injuries, etc.

I'm just talking about the visibility of the dot and front sight against different colored targets in different lighting conditions.

Lots of products? Such as? I'm aware of one or two, but can't say I know of lots. The allure of the ECHO Arms ILM is that it's lower profile, lighter weight, and cheaper than a DBAL-D2, not that it's a superior product in terms of raw performance. Again, is it a good enough setup? Mission drives gear, but you can do a decent amount of work for it. But to claim that one cannot take advantage of the far superior illuminators of the DBAL-D2 or MAWL-C1+ even though they are still stuck with a 0.7 mW pointer is patently wrong.

Anyway, my original questions to this thread still stand, so until those answers come out, I really don't have much to add I keep saying I'm just a dude who's been shooting for a long time. Never been in the military, much less have special skills or anything.. Can one prefer irons to RDS? Sure. That's just personal preference. Can one shoot irons better than RDS? Absolutely, that's just a function of how much practice one has. But to say that irons generally offer better performance than an RDS on a rifle for practical self-defense purposes remains fairly ridiculous by most measures.

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[C-grunt]

When a carbomb blows a hole in the wall and jihadists start coming through no one is adjusting their dot. When you are fighting house to house in the middle of the summer, no one is adjusting their dot. When a patrol officer is responding to an active shooter, they aren't adjusting their dot.

Ive been shooting white steel in the desert sun for a couple decades now and haven't had an issue with dots washing out.

[titsonritz]

Ive been shooting white steel in the desert sun for a couple decades now and haven't had an issue with dots washing out.

Yeah, I don't get that train of thought either. I can't think of a single time I've not been able to see my dot against any background.

[DG23]

We took the 14.5" SOCOM out to 750 yards yesterday. 500 yards you can get some predictable hits, but 750 becomes a 30% hit probability. The sight radius is silly, and the front sight is massive against the tiny spec of a target.

Pretty sure you are aware that front sight posts can be readily had in many different widths. Same thing for rear apertures and how big or small they are...

The width of the front sight post (at a given sight radius) can also be used for ranging.



If you shrink the sight radius - You can also shrink the front sight post width so that you pretty much have the same torso width / front sight post width at your battle sight zero on your carbine as you do your rifle.

[grizzman]

As a quick test, I moved a Malkoff E2XT head to the light body attached to an AR with an M4S. The RDS was set to the brightness I used a few days ago at an indoor range....not overly bright. With 55,000 lux of output (centered on the dot), I had no problem seeing the dot against every surface in my living room ranging from eggshell-ish walls, to a gold and brown chair, to black speaker baffles, to dark coffee table, to medium brown doors.

Naturally, at 12 feet the dot's visibility is completely irrelevant.

I've never experienced a dot so bright in diminished lighting that it was unusable.

You can add me to the list of those that basically never adjust their RDS brightness.

[okie]

As a quick test, I moved a Malkoff E2XT head to the light body attached to an AR with an M4S. The RDS was set to the brightness I used a few days ago at an indoor range....not overly bright. With 55,000 lux of output (centered on the dot), I had no problem seeing the dot against every surface in my living room ranging from eggshell-ish walls, to a gold and brown chair, to black speaker baffles, to dark coffee table, to medium brown doors.

Naturally, at 12 feet the dot's visibility is completely irrelevant.

I've never experienced a dot so bright in diminished lighting that it was unusable.

You can add me to the list of those that basically never adjust their RDS brightness.

Well at an indoor range, I would have it on maybe the third setting, tops. If I'm shooting outside on a sunny day, I have to turn my aimpoints up all the way, and even then sometimes it's not quite bright enough depending on the target. If I then leave it on that same setting towards dusk I can't see anything but red light looking through the tube (same going indoors in a typically lit room). I've had comps, micros, and pros. Haven't played with an eotech in about ten years, but I remember them being somewhat less problematic in that regard. I've also had GWOT veterans tell me they preferred the eotechs because sometimes the aimpoints weren't bright enough in the desert. The problems with eotechs though forced me to ditch them even long before the recall. The battery life and having to turn them on and off was a deal killer for me as an always ready home defense optic. That was actually my very first real red dot was an eotech. I don't think I was aware that aimpoint existed at that time, probably because they were still super pricy back then. They hadn't come out with the budget friendly models yet, and I was still in college.

[markm]

Yeah, I don't get that train of thought either. I can't think of a single time I've not been able to see my dot against any background.

It happens all the time for me. I'm not anti RDS, but yeah... I'll regularly pick up a gun and have to bump up the dot because it was left too low. Once set for the conditions, not a problem.

I've never experienced a dot so bright in diminished lighting that it was unusable.

I wouldn't say unusable, but yeah... if the dot was left at an outdoor setting and I pick it up; it can be so bright that it illuminates the inside of the tube and is very distracting. Plus it's so bright it hurts my ability to see detail on the target.