HK 51

[OLIAR15]

LGS here in Switzerland is selling this gun from his personal collection. I’ll apply for a special permit (since it’s full auto) and buy it in a few weeks. I didn’t know this model so made some internet research and found gun Jesus’ description and videos

« The HK51 is not a gun that was ever actually produced by Heckler & Koch. It is instead a variation on the G3/HK91 originally developed by American H&K specialist Bill Fleming. He was contracted by a UK-based company called FR Ordnance to produce a submachine gun sized version of the G3 for British SAS and SBS use. Both agencies did actually buy a few examples, and used them a few times operationally. Some testing was done on specialty ammunition for them, but they were ultimately replaced by the rather more practical HK53 (essentially the same gun but in 5.56mm).

Where the HK51 saw most of its sales was on the US recreational market, with both Fleming and others making the guns, often in combination with registered H&K auto sears. With full-power 7.62mm NATO ammunition and all of an 8.3 inch barrel, the HK51 serves best as an attention-getter on a range full of other machine guns… »

https://youtu.be/FTi_KvzNEPs

https://youtu.be/0_Iapo5GXVc























It’s obviously based on a Portuguese made G3 from March 1963 (FMP - Fabrica Militar de Portugal)

Anyone here knows more about these ?

In any case it’ll go well with my MP5

[juliet9]

LGS here in Switzerland is selling this gun from his personal collection. I’ll apply for a special permit (since it’s full auto) and buy it in a few weeks. I didn’t know this model so made some internet research and found gun Jesus’ description and videos

« The HK51 is not a gun that was ever actually produced by Heckler & Koch. It is instead a variation on the G3/HK91 originally developed by American H&K specialist Bill Fleming. He was contracted by a UK-based company called FR Ordnance to produce a submachine gun sized version of the G3 for British SAS and SBS use. Both agencies did actually buy a few examples, and used them a few times operationally. Some testing was done on specialty ammunition for them, but they were ultimately replaced by the rather more practical HK53 (essentially the same gun but in 5.56mm).

Where the HK51 saw most of its sales was on the US recreational market, with both Fleming and others making the guns, often in combination with registered H&K auto sears. With full-power 7.62mm NATO ammunition and all of an 8.3 inch barrel, the HK51 serves best as an attention-getter on a range full of other machine guns… »

I am throwing a flag on the text in red.

The statement in orange, is the only truth out of the two statements, but I would state all sales were fro the US recreational market.

[Bret]

I want to see the video of you dumping 30rds without letting off the trigger.

[OLIAR15]

I am throwing a flag on the text in red.

The statement in orange, is the only truth out of the two statements, but I would state all sales were fro the US recreational market.

I dunno, I just listened to Ian in the above video :

« ..and perhaps the most surprising thing to me in doing some research on this gun before I actually started filming it, was to discover that the stories about the SAS are actually true.

This in fact got its origin with the British SAS and SBS, the Special Boat Service. They actually contracted for a gun of this configuration, and they contracted with a British company called FR Ordnance to do it. FR Ordnance then got Bill Fleming, who was an American gunsmith who specialised in H&K products, to come up with a way to make this work.

It was used, I don't want to say adopted because it was never formally adopted by the British, but a number of them were purchased under the designation MC51. And in fact a couple of them were actually used on operational missions by SAS and SBS.

Now very few of these were actually procured by British special forces, they were not used very much. Both agences independently did some testing on different specialty ammunition to use with this, which I would assume would involve heavy bullets to try and get the most possible out of such a short barrel. And there was also a suppressed version. Especially if you could come up with a subsonic .308 out of a short barrel for the suppressed version, that would make sense.

Ultimately, British special forces abandoned these in favour of something slightly more practical, that being the HK53. So essentially the same gun, but in 5.56. »

[juliet9]

I had many conversations and dealings with Bill Flemming. The so called HK51 was a a cut down HK91, with some reg receiver push pin lowers, some clip on reg receivers, and some were set up as sear guns made for the civilian market in the US. The latter being the most common. I do not believe any of them were made for any gov't entity anywhere. You really believe that the SAS is gonna buy some cobbled up cut down gun from an American guy, a guy who dreamt the thing up in his shop? Who would want one? For what? If in fact the SAS wanted one, they would go to HK and ask them to make one, again not a C2/C7 manufacturer in the US. To be frank, the things are an abortion, and were for the "flame thrower" effect at Knob Creek. I shot a few of them and was not impressed, not even a little.

The G3KA4 on the other hand was used in limited roles with some British forces for a short period, and it is an HK factory made weapon with a 12.3" barrel. Flemming"s guns had approximately 8" barrels. No bueno.

This guy in the video doesn't name his sources, but says he found it is is true. Really? Sounds like fake news to me. I never heard that story from Bill, and I would be surprised he wouldn't mention it if true.

[yoni]

I remember a conversation I had with a friend that had cross trained with the SAS about this gun, and he said he did in fact see it in an arms room.

I know it would be a handful to shoot.

I will say my PTR 32 has pretty much become my favorite rifle caliber pistol.

[juliet9]

I am going to maintain it would have been the G3KA4 depending on time frame. These "HK51" weapons, were made in the late 70's-early 80's. So if your friend who allegedly saw them, it was 40+ years ago.

Remember, there is no HK51 according to HK, that was a designation Flemming came up with.

I still also maintain, that some group like the SAS with all their resources, is not going to take guns that were cut down, welded up, and basically dramatically changed from a factory gun by a firearms and C3 enthusiast working in a small shop in the US.

Is it impossible? Of course not, but hypothectially if in fact the SAS did purchase a couple of examples, to say they were used operationally is an extraordinary reach at a minimum .

[OLIAR15]

I have no dog in this fight, I don’t really care one way or another

It’s dubbed the 51 because of HK’s two digit numbering system

5 for submachine gun
1 for 7.62 X 51



“This guy in the video” is Ian McCallum, he is quite well known in gun circles. I don’t know his sources, maybe you can ask him. Your source is that Mr. Fleming never discussed it with you. Not very conclusive either. Sadly he passed away a few months ago in a car accident so we can’t ask him.

I’ll get it for a little over $ 2500, can’t go wrong imo

[juliet9]

I know how it was numbered. The only relevance that has is HK never made one.

I am not curious enough to care to ask the guy. I don't think it is true and is irrelevant to me. I simply find it funny how this guy or that guy had a "government contract", which often seems nothing more than a ploy to sell something.

My "source" is dealing with Bill Flemming for 30 plus years. I am almost certain, no check that, I am certain IF, and that is a BIG IF, he was contacted by a British company per the SAS to purchase his conversions of HK91's into something he dreamt up for the firing line a Knob Creek, he would have mentioned it. Bill was a talker, and something like that most likely wouldn't have slipped thru the cracks.

Not questioning your purchase or the price, just the story the fellow you call "gun Jesus" told.

[RHINOWSO]

Regardless of the he said she said about previous gun lore and who’s brother’s sisters roommate made out with Bill, great pickup.