Which handguards are suitable for active aiming with a laser?

[mack7.62]

Holy crap this thread brings to mind things like "first world problem" and a "a solution in search of a problem". Seriously "generate huge forces when loading a bipod" is an issue when discussing aiming lasers? Can someone please enlighten me about a realistic scenario where I might be using a IR laser under 1X NOD's to identify and aim at a target and I am going to put enough force on my handguard to deflect off target? Inquiring minds want to know. Just to add with the proliferation of NOD's nowadays I am seeing the need to focus more on passive aiming anyway.

[markm]

Can someone please enlighten me about a realistic scenario where I might be using a IR laser under 1X NOD's to identify and aim at a target and I am going to put enough force on my handguard to deflect off target?

My thoughts as well. Ease off the gun and take the shot.

[titsonritz]

What about cinching up on the sling?

[mack7.62]

In a CQB situation? IR lasers are not a precision aiming aid they are for snap shooting up close in low light conditions, only reason I can think of to go to distance with one is to designate a target or area of interest to others and precision is not really needed for this.

[Defaultmp3]

I mean, what realistic scenario for civilians are there for use of NODs in a self-defense context in general?

You could easily use lasers for longer range shots, say out to 100 to 150 yards, particularly when paired with active illumination. One could then utilize the barricade to help steady the aim, particularly if tired or fatigued, which in turn could mean quite a bit of force as someone just brute-forces that position. The laser can be faster than passive aiming even at these further distances, if proper use of cover is utilized, especially since it's an active emission and thus one can have many more options in how to position the gun and one's head in order to maximize cover while also getting good stabilization, e.g., on a VTAC barricade, one can simply jam the rifle through on port while peeking out the side or through another port to aim at the target. A couple of MOAs off at 100 yards can easily produce misses against smaller profiled targets, such as the side of a person or if the person was using cover poorly.

Are these first-world problems? Sure. But if you've spent thousands of dollars on NODs and MFALs, dropping a hundred or two extra on a more rigid handguard to maximize your equipment and skills doesn't really seem like a big deal to me.

[GTF425]

It's been my experience that dropping rifles causes more of a zero shift with lasers than anything else.

[Mysteryman]

Well, folks like Pressburg have shown that when they bear down on the gun, they can cause 6 to 8 MOA of deflection. Pressburg has also hypothesized that handguard flex is part of what's driving some folks that he knows and respects that do significant amount of work under NODs to move their MFALs back to as close to the receiver as possible, despite the many downsides of doing so. There is also the fact that some modern guns still have significant handguard flex issues, such as the MCX, particularly the newer Virtus models, enough that folks have to come up with mounts specific for a laser to tie it to the receiver instead of the handguard:

Not 100% sure of why GBRS created the mount they did, but it's been hypothesized that this would not only allow a better weight distribution and grip (one of the original reasons folks mounted their lasers to the rear near the receiver for more daytime oriented units), but also to completely circumvent the handguard flex issue (which was also a reason folks back in the day would mount near the receiver, even when NODs oriented, when there wasn't really many choices for low flex handguards):

....

I understand the deflection when excessive force is applied to the handguard. What I don't get is where or rather under what circumstances would anyone be applying such force to their rifle under NOD's and using the IR laser? The science is sound, the probability of it occurring is where I fall short.

On a side note, GBRS did not design the mount, Slade Cutrer (formerly of GBRS) designed the mount.

[Defaultmp3]

I understand the deflection when excessive force is applied to the handguard. What I don't get is where or rather under what circumstances would anyone be applying such force to their rifle under NOD's and using the IR laser? The science is sound, the probability of it occurring is where I fall short.

On a side note, GBRS did not design the mount, Slade Cutrer (formerly of GBRS) designed the mount.

You could easily use lasers for longer range shots, say out to 100 to 150 yards, particularly when paired with active illumination. One could then utilize the barricade to help steady the aim, particularly if tired or fatigued, which in turn could mean quite a bit of force as someone just brute-forces that position. The laser can be faster than passive aiming even at these further distances, if proper use of cover is utilized, especially since it's an active emission and thus one can have many more options in how to position the gun and one's head in order to maximize cover while also getting good stabilization, e.g., on a VTAC barricade, one can simply jam the rifle through on port while peeking out the side or through another port to aim at the target. A couple of MOAs off at 100 yards can easily produce misses against smaller profiled targets, such as the side of a person or if the person was using cover poorly.

Are these first-world problems? Sure. But if you've spent thousands of dollars on NODs and MFALs, dropping a hundred or two extra on a more rigid handguard to maximize your equipment and skills doesn't really seem like a big deal to me.

I've had multiple instructors talk about how important barricade work is in actual gunfighting, and the utility of using said barricade to stabilize the gun. If you're amped up on adrenaline, running up to a barricade, and then jamming your light or VFG against the wall as an impromptu barricade stop, and then bearing down, you could be putting on a fair amount of force on the handguard; this is a scenario that Pressburg has talked about multiple times.

[Mysteryman]

I've had multiple instructors talk about how important barricade work is in actual gunfighting, and the utility of using said barricade to stabilize the gun. If you're amped up on adrenaline, running up to a barricade, and then jamming your light or VFG against the wall as an impromptu barricade stop, and then bearing down, you could be putting on a fair amount of force on the handguard; this is a scenario that Pressburg has talked about multiple times.

Not trying to be facetious here but, you're using an IR laser and working with NOD's, what's the rush and who can see you?? Obviously if your adversary is similarly equipped then all bets are off. The whole point to NOD work is to gain the advantage. I would also presume that those proficient with IR and NOD work are also familiar with stress and stress inoculation. At least to the point where they wouldn't be strong arming their gear to the point of POI shift.

[Defaultmp3]

Not trying to be facetious here but, you're using an IR laser and working with NOD's, what's the rush and who can see you?? Obviously if your adversary is similarly equipped then all bets are off. The whole point to NOD work is to gain the advantage. I would also presume that those proficient with IR and NOD work are also familiar with stress and stress inoculation. At least to the point where they wouldn't be strong arming their gear to the point of POI shift.

My assumption is that this is primarily for a military context. Just because the enemy doesn't have NODs doesn't mean they don't know where your general area is; if you've gone loud and the enemy knows what building you're in, even if they don't know which window you're at, they can just hose the whole thing down with machine gun fire and RPGs. As for stress inoculation, I meant the adrenaline simply means that they are liable to put more pressure onto the gun more easily; it is my understanding that some of them will shoot that way in general, with the theory that the maximum amount of pressure is good to maximize recoil control, and the adrenaline just makes them force it that much harder. Obviously they are aware of needing to come off the gun if they get multiple mikes, but then that's a missed opportunity, and reduced recoil control. Remember, this whole handguard deflection thing, as best I can tell, grew out of SOF experiences in the GWOT.