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Thread: Which handguards are suitable for active aiming with a laser?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    My assumption is that this is primarily for a military context. Just because the enemy doesn't have NODs doesn't mean they don't know where your general area is
    For sure. In ANY context. Even with suppression, it's clear where shot are coming from within 100 yards or more unless it's total chaos.
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    I've had multiple instructors talk about how important barricade work is in actual gunfighting, and the utility of using said barricade to stabilize the gun. If you're amped up on adrenaline, running up to a barricade, and then jamming your light or VFG against the wall as an impromptu barricade stop, and then bearing down, you could be putting on a fair amount of force on the handguard; this is a scenario that Pressburg has talked about multiple times.
    Who actually puts the handguard or barrel directly up against the barricade? I lean against them slightly with my support hand and then usually hold the forearm of the stock with a combination of thumb and forefinger or all fingers depending on the nature of the barrier.

    If you torque even a thin ALG type tube enough to flex the barrel Mount and thus the barrel you are putting huge amounts of lateral pressure on it, far more than I could ever envision in barricade type shooting.

    The old trope about flexing hand guards and 3moa point of impact shift was largely due to people doing CMP type shooting with super tight slings. Not to say that GIs first learning to shoot couldn't put excessive pressure on it, just that it's not a thing lately.

    In a world where people who will see combat are routinely monopodding on magazines (which I can't bring myself to do) rail flex is a pretty extreme concern. And monopodding is something GIs are often taught lately.

    This wouldn't be that hard to test in a controlled environment. Upper receiver firmly held in a vice. Increasing amounts of weight applied to the end of the handguard. Or the middle where most people would hold it. Rough math a 16-in barrel would need to deflect .013" to yield a 3 moa shift, easily measured on a bench.

    Also remember that a more rigid handguard is just going to allow more torque to be applied to the barrel nut and extension. A tube that flexes slightly will absorb some of that torque. So I can make the argument that a more rigid handguard is actually worse for this potential issue.

    The above unless you're using one of those BCM skinny rails design for men with girly hands. :-) in that case all bets are off!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    Who actually puts the handguard or barrel directly up against the barricade? I lean against them slightly with my support hand and then usually hold the forearm of the stock with a combination of thumb and forefinger or all fingers depending on the nature of the barrier.

    If you torque even a thin ALG type tube enough to flex the barrel Mount and thus the barrel you are putting huge amounts of lateral pressure on it, far more than I could ever envision in barricade type shooting.

    The old trope about flexing hand guards and 3moa point of impact shift was largely due to people doing CMP type shooting with super tight slings. Not to say that GIs first learning to shoot couldn't put excessive pressure on it, just that it's not a thing lately.

    In a world where people who will see combat are routinely monopodding on magazines (which I can't bring myself to do) rail flex is a pretty extreme concern. And monopodding is something GIs are often taught lately.

    This wouldn't be that hard to test in a controlled environment. Upper receiver firmly held in a vice. Increasing amounts of weight applied to the end of the handguard. Or the middle where most people would hold it. Rough math a 16-in barrel would need to deflect .013" to yield a 3 moa shift, easily measured on a bench.

    Also remember that a more rigid handguard is just going to allow more torque to be applied to the barrel nut and extension. A tube that flexes slightly will absorb some of that torque. So I can make the argument that a more rigid handguard is actually worse for this potential issue.

    The above unless you're using one of those BCM skinny rails design for men with girly hands. :-) in that case all bets are off!
    I typically also don't really use barricade stops, but this is more of a function of range limitations more than anything; if I really bear into it, the barricades at the range will definitely flex and move. However, when using actual vehicles or inside a shoothouse, I've definitely just jammed my light or sling mount into the side of the barricade, and could definitely see the doing that with a VFG.

    The issue of deflection isn't an issue of the barrel itself moving to shift zero (which I have also seen, with my friend on his KAC LPR and loading the bipod), but the handguard itself flexing, and thus the MFAL on it also moving and thus now being off-target. This is why this issue of handguard rigidity is really only discussed in the context of NODs-oriented guns, since we are concerned about the POA/POI shift due to the laser moving, so this is not an issue during the day when just using optics on the receiver.
    Last edited by Defaultmp3; 03-30-22 at 14:49.
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    The issue of deflection isn't an issue of the barrel itself moving to shift zero (which I have also seen, with my friend on his KAC LPR and loading the bipod), but the handguard itself flexing,
    I was wondering this about some of my Long handguard carbines. I can grab the muzzle device and the rail and flex the two. Is it the barrel/upper receiver flex? Or just the handguard? Or both?

    I know from the guys who mad the VLTRO MUR that there was measurable upper receiver flex with standard flat top receivers.
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    The issue of deflection isn't an issue of the barrel itself moving to shift zero (which I have also seen, with my friend on his KAC LPR and loading the bipod), but the handguard itself flexing, and thus the MFAL on it also moving and thus now being off-target.
    My bad, that's the whole point of the thread! :-) I get it. My only defense is I don't have nods so I'm going to claim it was so dark I could not read the original article clearly. :-)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    My assumption is that this is primarily for a military context. Just because the enemy doesn't have NODs doesn't mean they don't know where your general area is; if you've gone loud and the enemy knows what building you're in, even if they don't know which window you're at, they can just hose the whole thing down with machine gun fire and RPGs. As for stress inoculation, I meant the adrenaline simply means that they are liable to put more pressure onto the gun more easily; it is my understanding that some of them will shoot that way in general, with the theory that the maximum amount of pressure is good to maximize recoil control, and the adrenaline just makes them force it that much harder. Obviously they are aware of needing to come off the gun if they get multiple mikes, but then that's a missed opportunity, and reduced recoil control. Remember, this whole handguard deflection thing, as best I can tell, grew out of SOF experiences in the GWOT.
    I'm tracking the concept. I can't see anyone putting enough stress on the rail to make a difference at the ranges active aiming is deployed.

  7. #27
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    Ran across this write up researching rails to laser up, thought I'd share. I was particularly surprised the Geissele MK16 preformed rather poorly compared to other handguards like the BCM MCMR and Midwest Industries (see page 12)...

    Understanding Handguard Flex and Point of Impact Shift for Laser Aiming Devices
    Gettin' down innagrass.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by titsonritz View Post
    I was particularly surprised the Geissele MK16 preformed rather poorly compared to other handguards like the BCM MCMR and Midwest Industries (see page 12)...
    That is odd. Geissele's handguards seem really stout.
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    That is odd. Geissele's handguards seem really stout.
    The MK16 is not as thick as the MK4/8 etc. Very comparable to the original BCM Keymo rails.

  10. #30
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    There's always the Easy Button... just get an Arisaka Mossie Mount and rack a LaserMax Uni-Max or similar compact laser or light/laser on it. Your laser is structurally connected to the barrel through the FSB, handguard is taken completely out of the equation.
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