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Thread: Army picks SIG to produce Next Generation Squad Weapon

  1. #351
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    Oh, and one more thing . . .

    Two versus three different caliber ammunition is not as big a deal as it once was. In the pre-World War 2 world, ammunition came one form, bulk boxed rounds. Belted ammunition was locally made up. And, logistics management was not as good as today.

    Today, ammunition for an M249 is essentially completely different than ammunition for an M4A1. While it is theoretically possible for the M4 operator to de-belt and shoot M249 ammunition, and theoretically possible to collect used links and link ammunition from stripper clips, it is not practical as links are not salvaged off the battlefield.

    In reality, since the 1980s the US has had at least five types of small arms ammunition, not counting Caliber .50, 40mm Grenades for the M203, 40mm grenades for the Mk 19 (which are not interchangeable), 9mm, or Caliber .45, in the system: namely sniper ammunition, belted 7.62mm, clipped 7.62mm, belted 5.56mm, clipped 5.56mm. Then you also have 7.62mm packaged in 600 round belts, which is not practical for infantry use. . . .

    Today there are 121 different DOD Ammunition Codes, each with a unique NSN, for 7.62mm ammunition, 137 for 5.56mm. Many of these are treated by the supply system as "non-interchangeable".

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    Oh, and one more thing . . .

    Two versus three different caliber ammunition is not as big a deal as it once was. In the pre-World War 2 world, ammunition came one form, bulk boxed rounds. Belted ammunition was locally made up. And, logistics management was not as good as today.

    Today, ammunition for an M249 is essentially completely different than ammunition for an M4A1. While it is theoretically possible for the M4 operator to de-belt and shoot M249 ammunition, and theoretically possible to collect used links and link ammunition from stripper clips, it is not practical as links are not salvaged off the battlefield.

    In reality, since the 1980s the US has had at least five types of small arms ammunition, not counting Caliber .50, 40mm Grenades for the M203, 40mm grenades for the Mk 19 (which are not interchangeable), 9mm, or Caliber .45, in the system: namely sniper ammunition, belted 7.62mm, clipped 7.62mm, belted 5.56mm, clipped 5.56mm. Then you also have 7.62mm packaged in 600 round belts, which is not practical for infantry use. . . .

    Today there are 121 different DOD Ammunition Codes, each with a unique NSN, for 7.62mm ammunition, 137 for 5.56mm. Many of these are treated by the supply system as "non-interchangeable".
    Yep, I would not be concerned that our logistics systems and people need to get certain ammo to certain users. BTDT for decades.
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  3. #353
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    syserror...
    Last edited by caporider; 04-24-24 at 08:14.
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  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    Oh, and one more thing . . .

    Two versus three different caliber ammunition is not as big a deal as it once was. In the pre-World War 2 world, ammunition came one form, bulk boxed rounds. Belted ammunition was locally made up. And, logistics management was not as good as today.

    Today, ammunition for an M249 is essentially completely different than ammunition for an M4A1. While it is theoretically possible for the M4 operator to de-belt and shoot M249 ammunition, and theoretically possible to collect used links and link ammunition from stripper clips, it is not practical as links are not salvaged off the battlefield.

    In reality, since the 1980s the US has had at least five types of small arms ammunition, not counting Caliber .50, 40mm Grenades for the M203, 40mm grenades for the Mk 19 (which are not interchangeable), 9mm, or Caliber .45, in the system: namely sniper ammunition, belted 7.62mm, clipped 7.62mm, belted 5.56mm, clipped 5.56mm. Then you also have 7.62mm packaged in 600 round belts, which is not practical for infantry use. . . .

    Today there are 121 different DOD Ammunition Codes, each with a unique NSN, for 7.62mm ammunition, 137 for 5.56mm. Many of these are treated by the supply system as "non-interchangeable".
    Quote Originally Posted by caporider View Post
    Yep, I would not be concerned that our logistics systems and people need to get certain ammo to certain users. BTDT for decades.
    Weird, as someone with recent experience on that one, I am concerned about it depending on how actual fielding is fleshed out. I don't expect that the entire infantry CO will receive the Sigs so it'll be one additional major DODIC for resupply. It was sometimes hard enough with the three major DODICS, now a fourth major one will be added and I'm not sure it'll truly replace any.
    Last edited by Wake27; 04-24-24 at 15:35.
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  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Weird, as someone with recent experience on that one, I am concerned about it depending on how actual fielding is fleshed out. I don't expect that the entire infantry CO will receive the Sigs so it'll be one additional major DODIC for resupply. It was sometimes hard enough with the three major DODICS, now a fourth major one will be added and I'm not sure it'll truly replace any.
    You're active duty, correct? Maybe you can find out if it is indeed the entire Infantry company/battalion that is equipped with the Sig? Don't think that it would be an OPSEC violation being as it's a [newly] fielded "general issue" weapon.
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  6. #356
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    Army picks SIG to produce Next Generation Squad Weapon

    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    You're active duty, correct? Maybe you can find out if it is indeed the entire Infantry company/battalion that is equipped with the Sig? Don't think that it would be an OPSEC violation being as it's a [newly] fielded "general issue" weapon.
    I havenít been around operational units on the conventional side for some time and wonít be again for at least another year. I may run into someone that I can ask in that time but itís hard to say.

    Itís a safe assumption that most of a line company will be outfitted, I donít know about the support personnel that belong to each company though. Itís not a ton of people but when you add up the medics, supply, commo, and any attached personnel, itís enough that you probably shouldnít ignore 5.56. That problem will be much bigger at the BN level with far more support personnel and light IN BNs do not have significant distribution capabilities so itís not uncommon to have to work through prioritizing pallet space for all classes of resupply. Ammo is only part of that so one more thing is, in fact, one more thing.

    Spare parts and maintenance procedures will have a similar problem. Itís not the end of the world, but itís also not a small handful of sniper rifles. This will be a significant quantity of weapons, of which, there is zero institutional knowledge. Without a full replacement of current platforms, it will increase the tax on logistics.


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    Last edited by Wake27; 04-24-24 at 19:55.
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  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    You're active duty, correct? Maybe you can find out if it is indeed the entire Infantry company/battalion that is equipped with the Sig? Don't think that it would be an OPSEC violation being as it's a [newly] fielded "general issue" weapon.
    The document you are referencing is the BOIP or MTOE. It is not UNRESTRICTED release. However, from open source documents the Rifle will only be issued to specific MOSs, so the Supply SGT and NBC NCO shouldn't be running around with one. We will see how this shakes out, they might decide to cancel it, they may decide to expand it. I'm interested in seeing how it performs and what issues inevitably arise once Soldiers get their hands on it during Rotations and Training.

  8. #358
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    This is one aspect of a brief I give XVIIIth Airborne Corps next month.

    In the INDO-PACOM Theater we deal with the tyranny of distance. Dating back to WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, every Beanie-Weenie, bomb, bullet, band-aid, battery, bottle, and hydrocarbon shipped (with a lot more ships) from the West Coast to your front-line position in 120 days. In WWII the Navy (Halsey) and Army (MacArthur) competed for the same bunker fuel, AVGAS, bombs, and meals.

    Air-Sea Warfare Doctrine says the Navy and Air Force will have priority in the Pacific until you need foot Soldiers to hold ground.

  9. #359
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    Will it be any worse than a WW2 battalion with a mix of Caliber .30, Caliber (boxed or M1906 clips for the BAR), Caliber .30 (belted), Caliber .30 (M1 clips) .30 Carbine, and Caliber .45?
    Last edited by lysander; 04-24-24 at 20:01.

  10. #360
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    Precisely.

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