German Flakpanzers for Ukraine

[Averageman]

I don't have a Dog in the fight, but it is however just common sense that if you invade a country, people are going to fight like hell.
Russia didn't need to do this, what do they need from Ukraine that couldn't be negotiated? The problem is negotiations require give and take and Putin wanted to go in with troops and tanks and not negotiate.
So here we are.
Neither player in this game is pure or faultless, but by the actions of Russia speak for themselves as the aggressor.

[Slater]

Gotta love those German special paint schemes:

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Gotta love those German special paint schemes:

Looks like it should be call the "COVID Camo"....

I remember when that system came out, seemed pretty wicked. DOesn't it sense the speed of the shell in the barrel and then sets each shells detonation time/distance to jack up aircraft? Interesting that Germany retired these and a bunch of countries picked them up. What did Germany field to replace it?

[Averageman]

Looks like it should be call the "COVID Camo"....

I remember when that system came out, seemed pretty wicked. DOesn't it sense the speed of the shell in the barrel and then sets each shells detonation time/distance to jack up aircraft? Interesting that Germany retired these and a bunch of countries picked them up. What did Germany field to replace it?

I believe they went with an anti aircraft missel system on a smaller vehicle. A Marder Roland.

[glocktogo]

I'm not a military or a political expert, but I think you're wrong on this. Germany has pretty bad track record when to comes to World wars. Two out of two they were on the wrong side. Polish motivations are also questionable. They have some unhealthy obsession about Russia, but I understand that given their 400 years warring history with Russia.

As of history, it's easy to say now what was a right or wrong thing to do looking at it back. But what I do know is that every police officer recommends not to escalate the situation when you're faced with attacker.

Why people happily support any war and beat battle drums is beyond me. Solution is very simple: if anyone (country-wise, or individually) supports it - send your money, send your children, and go yourself to a war yourself. Ukraine (or whoever) has obviously decided to take that gamble of an active conflict with Russia. I understand that - they had a large army and still do. But I think there was a peaceful solution. Maybe not exactly to the Ukrainian liking, but IMHO that's better than having a whole country bombed, families and economy destroyed.

That's really all you had to type.

Why are different opinions so triggering? People have the right to believe and say things in America, regardless.

Yes, and we have the right to dismiss it out of hand.

Same could be said about Russia coming to the aid of those people living in Donetsk and Luhansk. After getting shelled regularly by the Ukrainians for the last 8 years after they (the majority of the people there) declared independence from Ukraine...

All they had to do was flee or assimilate. I mean that's what you're expecting the Ukrainians to do, right? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Oh, and it's not like those Russian expats in the region were exactly peaceful and on their own either.

I get where you're coming from: Rooting for a tough, determined, and likeable underdog in uneven fight is basically a narrative of many Hollywood movies and strongly ingrained in American culture. And western press tries to portray Ukraine as such.


Border disputes and country conflicts are nothing new. A professional from the state department can provide examples of successful negotiations and structured political agreements. Whenever political leaders are willing to negotiate is another question.

I see Zelenski, whose native language is Russian (not Ukrainian); who grew up in the Soviet Union and knows the culture, people, and history goes on stage weekly and call Russians and I quote here: "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"; it reminds me of nothing less than speeches of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels trying to dehumanize Jews and Eastern European nationalities as an excuse for mass extermination.

What rhetoric U.S. and European press omits from Zelenski's Ukrainian speeches to his citizens is probably worse.

Coming from a President, that outlines a country's official policy. I consider this both unprofessional and counter productive. I suspect that regardless who's in power in Russia they will still have a problem with this rhetoric coming from Ukraine, period.

Which brings me to my point:
I see that you have a lot of valiant and righteous feelings about it, which in my opinion is very honorable and commendable. Would you, personally, as a soldier or a political figure of a stronger and larger country have an incentive to negotiate with or surrender to another country/military which calls you and your countryman "'the most barbaric and inhuman' in the world"

You know the answer. Why should Russians yield to the Ukrainian demands then?

Link to Zelenski's quote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsky-says.html

So all the times a U.S. president has called leaders like Putin names like this, they were wrong? Russians are a peaceful people who've never committed atrocities in their recent history? Russian troops in places like Bucha have not committed barbaric war crimes in this unlawful invasion of Ukraine? To be blunt, if I'm not an inhuman barbarian bent on expansionism, I'm probably going to shrug off the name calling. Everything you just posted proves Zelenski's point. Russia should yield to Ukraine's demands because they are the oppressive invader in this mess, and they're getting 10's of thousands of Russians killed for their troubles!

[mack7.62]

I believe they went with an anti aircraft missel system on a smaller vehicle. A Marder Roland.

Not a Marder but a Wiesel 2 which is a tiny little thing with 4 Stingers.

Germany, the Gepard was phased out in late 2010 and replaced by Wiesel 2 Ozelot Leichtes Flugabwehrsystem (LeFlaSys) with four FIM-92 Stinger or LFK NG missile launchers.

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[alx01]

Everything you just posted proves Zelenski's point. Russia should yield to Ukraine's demands because they are the oppressive invader in this mess, and they're getting 10's of thousands of Russians killed for their troubles!

-- got a little too many drinks yesterday and comments got personal. I apologize for that --

[alx01]

That's really all you had to type.
Yes, and we have the right to dismiss it out of hand.

-- got a little too many drinks yesterday and comments got personal. I apologize for that --

[glocktogo]

You're an idiot.

Yes, the same as 99.5% people on this board including yourself. You're a shmuck without a real-world knowledge or experience who pretends to on some moral high ground.

LOL, says the guy who thinks Putin is going to give him a medal or something.

[mack7.62]

Man I sure wish we could talk about Flakpanzers cause those things really interest me, those little Wiesel 2's also, take one of them and mount 6 Stugna-P's or Javelin's and you got yourself a modern day Ontos. The Ozelot pictured is the Stinger verson but develop a version with 6 ATGM's and get a lot of them/


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