Army creating second Paratrooper division

[Alpha-17]

Having been stationed in Panama I may bring a biased view to the discussion but the Army seems to have lost focus of fighting in jungled or thickly wooded terrain in the last few decades. Granted, 20 years of war in the Sandbox no doubt influences things, and now we look toward Arctic capabilities. Maybe some of you active duty guys can shed some light on whether the Army is still looking to be proficient in a Vietnam-type AO as a potential need in the future?

Not active duty anymore, but isn't that the mission set for the 25th ID, or at least the guys they have in Hawaii? There was quite a hubbub about it back before I got out in '15 anyway. I'd argue that the shift in focus to the Pacific for the Marine Corps also means they'd be better suited for this task.

Personally, I think the shift away from jungle/forest-centric warfare is a good idea. I saw elements of it as late as '07 when I joined, and it always felt like a half-remembered relic of Vietnam. We absolutely need to keep the insitutional memory of it around, but not to the point where the entire force is organized for that specific mission set.

[Wake27]

Yeah, but we pre-suppose at that point an "invasion" of Russian or Chinese territory, and I don't think that we would do that if we were wise. Same could be said of any plans those two might have of invading America proper.

Maybe for a one-off "Siberian Winter" fight in Korea (like the winter of 1950-51) but dedicating an entire division for one unlikely scenario? I dunno.

Having said all that, Alaska is an odd duck (along with Hawaii) in being a U.S. state but not physically attached to CONUS. I can certainly see wanting to defend Alaska but by creating an entire Airborne division to do it? Doesn't seem like the most prudent use of resources.....and this is coming from an old Airborne guy!

Maybe a hybrid unit like some have mentioned, combining light infantry and mechanized/motorized units.

We’re not really a good deterrent if the enemy knows that we’re not capable of fighting on their turf, regardless of how much or little we may want to.

For the jungle, 25th in Hawaii is indeed jungle focused. They’ve had the jungle warfare course for several years. It did always strike me as weird that two BDEs for 25th in Hawaii were tropic focused and 25th’s other two BDEs were in Alaska and Arctic focused.


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[sndt1319]

So as I’ve thought about this more beyond being sad that 4/25 will be no more I think this is a good idea. Fighting in a truely cold area is a different beast. Maintaining institutional knowledge of how to do that is needed above a BDE level. Arctic TTP’s are just different. When troops can be injured by just touching their equipment without the proper PPE, you are in a different kind of place. You can’t afford to be stupid in the cold or it will kill people off in a hurry. Cold weather injuries required the whole chain of command go to the USARAK commander and explain why they failed their Soldiers. Soldiers kept getting hurt because they were told to suck stuff up.

[ABNAK]

We’re not really a good deterrent if the enemy knows that we’re not capable of fighting on their turf, regardless of how much or little we may want to.

For the jungle, 25th in Hawaii is indeed jungle focused. They’ve had the jungle warfare course for several years. It did always strike me as weird that two BDEs for 25th in Hawaii were tropic focused and 25th’s other two BDEs were in Alaska and Arctic focused.

That is a VERY loosely used term! Again maybe personal bias (and maybe the best we have to offer now that Panama is shut down) but Hawaii is hardly jungle. Yeah, it does keep the focus on maneuver and fighting in relatively dense vegetation, so that is a plus. [Ft. Sherman FTW baby!]

My larger point is the soundness of dedicating entire specific units to one environment: the 25th for "jungle", the 11th AbnDiv for Arctic, etc. I can see armored and mechanized units training for more open, all-out combined arms combat as they wouldn't fit well in a jungle/wooded AO. Light infantry like the 25th, 82nd, 101st, 10th Mountain, or the "light" brigades of the 3rd and 4th Divisions (they still have that TO&E?) should be able to engage enemies in tropical, wooded, Arctic, or desert terrain.

When JOTC was operational in Panama entire BN's of Army and Marine infantry would rotate through in 3-week cycles, year-round. Then there was NTC for desert ops. Don't recall where or if any cold-weather training was conducted then. I think at one time Big Army attempted to keep it's boots-on-the-ground elements well-rounded in areas they could be called upon to fight in. Seems today (and I may be wrong, been out a l-o-n-g time) that training for specific AO's is compartmentalized and rather myopic as opposed to being spread around.

[Wake27]

That is a VERY loosely used term! Again maybe personal bias (and maybe the best we have to offer now that Panama is shut down) but Hawaii is hardly jungle. Yeah, it does keep the focus on maneuver and fighting in relatively dense vegetation, so that is a plus. [Ft. Sherman FTW baby!]

My larger point is the soundness of dedicating entire specific units to one environment: the 25th for "jungle", the 11th AbnDiv for Arctic, etc. I can see armored and mechanized units training for more open, all-out combined arms combat as they wouldn't fit well in a jungle/wooded AO. Light infantry like the 25th, 82nd, 101st, 10th Mountain, or the "light" brigades of the 3rd and 4th Divisions (they still have that TO&E?) should be able to engage enemies in tropical, wooded, Arctic, or desert terrain.

When JOTC was operational in Panama entire BN's of Army and Marine infantry would rotate through in 3-week cycles, year-round. Then there was NTC for desert ops. Don't recall where or if any cold-weather training was conducted then. I think at one time Big Army attempted to keep it's boots-on-the-ground elements well-rounded in areas they could be called upon to fight in. Seems today (and I may be wrong, been out a l-o-n-g time) that training for specific AO's is compartmentalized and rather myopic as opposed to being spread around.

Hawaii has parts that are very much jungle, aside from some critters (snakes are definitely a recognized missing element). But there really isn’t any better place to do it. As of a few years ago, the school hosts both complete BNs and individual soldiers.

Units need to be compartmentalized. Operating in the Arctic and jungle are entirely different beasts. I’ve never fought in either but went from a light IN BDE in Hawaii to 10th SFG, where I’ve done the last two Cold Weather Trainings. There are enough nuances that you’re either looking to be a master of one or jack of all trades and master of none. That said, outside units send individual soldiers to these schools (jungle and Arctic) all the time. Plus, the army still rotates people through PCS constantly so the skill set exists in every formation, but it’s different having a few guys trained on Arctic warfare vs the focus of an entire division.

As was mentioned above, the Arctic will kill someone really fast if they don’t know what they’re doing. We absolutely need way more focus on it.




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[ABNAK]

Hawaii has parts that are very much jungle, aside from some critters (snakes are definitely a recognized missing element). But there really isn’t any better place to do it. As of a few years ago, the school hosts both complete BNs and individual soldiers.

Units need to be compartmentalized. Operating in the Arctic and jungle are entirely different beasts. I’ve never fought in either but went from a light IN BDE in Hawaii to 10th SFG, where I’ve done the last two Cold Weather Trainings. There are enough nuances that you’re either looking to be a master of one or jack of all trades and master of none. That said, outside units send individual soldiers to these schools (jungle and Arctic) all the time. Plus, the army still rotates people through PCS constantly so the skill set exists in every formation, but it’s different having a few guys trained on Arctic warfare vs the focus of an entire division.

As was mentioned above, the Arctic will kill someone really fast if they don’t know what they’re doing. We absolutely need way more focus on it.

So are you saying it's better to have individual soldiers skilled in one environment or another spread throughout a unit or the entire unit specialized in one area?

Never been to the boonies in Hawaii (tourist areas when I was 15yo don't count) but I did spend 3 years as a grunt in Panama. Triple canopy (in some areas) tropical rainforest with all the accompanying nasty shit. Legit jungle. I am a member of a couple vet-centric Facebook pages and one of them is "Panama Vets". There was a thread on there a couple years ago about the Hawaii course. Of course there was an obvious bias, so take it with a grain of salt, BUT......a couple guys "in the know" had experience with both (such as Panama JOTC as a young private and a senior NCO by the time the Hawaii one opened) who said there is really no comparison. Of course like you and I agree, that is about all we have to offer that is close these days. Always wondered if Puerto Rico could be used (?).

To be sure, the jungle sucks, but you can have that Arctic crap. No thanks.

[Slater]

Well, I hope this new unit has a cool shoulder patch anyway.

[Wake27]

So are you saying it's better to have individual soldiers skilled in one environment or another spread throughout a unit or the entire unit specialized in one area?

The overall focus of a full division geared toward one AO is better, I think. But as soldiers PCS and units rotate their personnel through schools that may not necessarily be their focus, you will get a little bit of that blending of knowledge.

The entire time I’ve been in the Army, I’ve felt that it requires too much of its Soldiers. Saying that any light IN BN should be able to fight in -30 with many feet of snow equally as well as 90* with 100* humidity in a triple canopy jungle just is not possible. So 11th as the Arctic division, 25th as the tropic, and all the others filling other specified rolls or just being a bit more generalized makes more sense to me.


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[chuckman]

JOTC in Panama wasn't an option when I was in, but they did send us to the FFL jungle training center in French Guyana. That sucked.

I think an Arctic-centric division is a good idea. I'm curious how you have an airborne division that's really not a division in strength, and not everyone is a jumper.

But I'm not 'Army' so there's a lot of things about the army that doesn't make sense to me.

[The_War_Wagon]

I read a comment somewhere today that the thought of a light infantry unit in Arctic conditions, i.e. moving on foot and not in any motorized way, was ludicrous.

That's because Biteme's solar & windmill-powered tanks humvees & APC's aren't ready quite yet.