Russian invasion of Ukraine discussion

**1168** · 08-16-23, 11:12

Originally Posted by WillBrink

All good points and accurate. While there may be people involved negotiating in good faith, governments never negotiate in good faith. Get it in writing and ratified, and even then you probably have a 50/50 it will be honored. The reality is, it's likely to be honored if you have the power - be it mil, $, etc - to force compliance or pain when one party does not honor, it. "Might makes right" and all that still applies.

DIME is the acronym that applies here. Works in interpersonal relationships, as well, and scales from there.

**ChattanoogaPhil** · 08-16-23, 13:56

On the heels of Ukraine's Deputy PM telling the people of Ukraine there is no end in sight to the war with Russia, a NATO official goes public suggesting land for peace and membership. Ukraine is unhappy with remarks. Following that, another NATO official pledges forever support... uh hu...

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The chief of staff for NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has angered Kyiv officials for suggesting Ukraine could become a member of NATO if it ceded some of its territory to Russia.

The Norwegian newspaper VG on Tuesday reported that while discussing Ukraine's ambitions of joining NATO to the Arendal panel, Jenssen said: "I think that a solution could be for Ukraine to give up territory and get NATO membership in return."

Mykhailo Podoliak, Zelensky's top adviser to the Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, denounced Jenssen's suggestion on X, formerly Twitter.

"Trading territory for a NATO umbrella? It is ridiculous. That means deliberately choosing the defeat of democracy, encouraging a global criminal, preserving the Russian regime, destroying international law, and passing the war on to other generations," Podoliak wrote.

He added, "Murderers should not be encouraged by appalling indulgences."

A spokesperson for Ukraine's Ministry of Foreign Affairs also publicly rejected the suggestion, calling Jenssen's proposal "absolutely unacceptable" in a statement posted on Facebook.

"We have always assumed that the alliance [NATO], like Ukraine, does not trade territories. The conscious or unconscious participation of NATO officials in shaping the narrative regarding the possibility of Ukraine's giving up its territories plays into the hands of Russia," foreign ministry spokesperson Oleh Nikolenko wrote in part.

A NATO official has since remarked on the tensions created by Jenssen's remarks by reaffirming the bloc's "clear and unwavering" support of Ukraine.

"We fully support Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, as NATO leaders reaffirmed at the Vilnius Summit in July," a NATO official was quoted as saying by Ukrainian outlet European Pravda. "We will continue to support Ukraine as long as necessary, and we are committed to achieving a just and lasting peace."

More here: https://www.newsweek.com/nato-offici...oining-1820010

**mack7.62** · 08-16-23, 13:58

Video of latest Kerch bridge attack.

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/st...23437050380571

Dmitri
@wartranslated
This is amazing. Not only the bridge was unsecured to be attacked by two drones from two directions, Ukrainians also had access to the cameras on the bridge.

**C-grunt** · 08-16-23, 21:08

Originally Posted by mack7.62

Video of latest Kerch bridge attack.

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/st...23437050380571

Dmitri
@wartranslated
This is amazing. Not only the bridge was unsecured to be attacked by two drones from two directions, Ukrainians also had access to the cameras on the bridge.

Is that from the attack a few days ago or a new one?

**mack7.62** · 08-16-23, 21:54

The one from a few days ago I believe, it's wild that Ukraine has access to the bridge security camera feed which shows the boat.

**C-grunt** · 08-17-23, 11:16

Hmmm. There goes the idiotic smoke screen line.

**ChattanoogaPhil** · 08-17-23, 12:01

Originally Posted by mack7.62

The one from a few days ago I believe, it's wild that Ukraine has access to the bridge security camera feed which shows the boat.

IIRC, you and ODgreen were conversing about the attack during daylight.

The video linked appears to be at night (still clip). Same attack or one that was at another time?

**mack7.62** · 08-17-23, 12:35

Don't know details but heard there were 4 separate attacks with drones and missiles. Lots of vids on X, here is one showing a drone boat exploding under the rail bridge with a train passing over. Russia is also cracking down on those taking pictures of war damage and posting on social media, subject to arrest.

https://twitter.com/search?q=kerch%2...rc=typed_query

Left Bank of Dniepro River ��
@BlueYelowBlue
·22h
Replying to
@BlueYelowBlue
Kerch bridge, Crimea as of 16.8.2023 10:05 PM local time.
Trafic Has been NOT reopened this morning!
It was fake news sended to Live Maps.
There is no traffic allowed in to the bridge!
No cars, no trains, no ships!
No photography!
Live cams switched of!
There is a problem