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Thread: Anyone else still use a shotgun for HD?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpoon View Post
    Are you all who use ARs for HD, planning on using ear protection when you shoot inside your house?
    I might think about using one when my can gets here. Been waiting 10 months for the Gov paperwork to be finished. It must be getting close.
    Funny how in this age of instant checks, the Gov takes almost a year to approve a suppressor. WTF?
    All of my 5.56 guns are suppressed. My SBSs are not. Regardless, I keep electronic ear pro on my bedside table and around the house.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgeib View Post
    Look, I'm not trying to minimize the effectiveness of a 12 ga HIT. What you don't get is as fast target re-acquisition if you miss (which is really not much harder to do than with anything else considering spread) or if you need to engage multiple targets. Use whatever you think works for you, brother, but keep in mind that the choice of pretty much every LEO and every military (with very very few exceptions such as breaching) is the carbine for good reason.

    Innumerable scenarios have been run, and the shotgun has been tried plenty. But they all have come back to the carbine. And truth be told, it's not like you won't be served well with a good SG, you will. You will just gain a few advantages with the carbine, advantages that most people will want when life and death are on the line. I know that I, for one at least, am going to seek every advantage I can get in a gun fight.
    This is HD, not combat. Im planning for the most likely scenario, which is 1-4 people. I want to do the most trauma, the fastest, in a fast paced environment. The 12ga got my vote because killing isn't my goal. Stopping their ability to function is.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    Some form of plate steel is cheaper and more likely. A round of buck to the nugget works. Same as 556.
    Steel is a meme.
    RLTW
    “Y-you realize that nighttime makes up half of all time?” -Rick Sanchez

    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    Steel is a meme.
    Criminals typically don't buy kevlar. But the steel plate meme grade stuff is pretty cheap and available.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    Criminals typically don't buy kevlar. But the steel plate meme grade stuff is pretty cheap and available.
    And is poor protection from either 5.56 or buckshot, near equally.
    RLTW
    “Y-you realize that nighttime makes up half of all time?” -Rick Sanchez

    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    And is poor protection from either 5.56 or buckshot, near equally.
    I agree, but it does "work", and it is the kind of poor methhead trash I'd expect to encounter. Some plate with truckbed liner on it will work just fine. You have to understand methheads don't care if they catch a face full of frag or whatever. You ever fight them? You have to SHUT. THEM. DOWN. There is zero pain compliance or psychological effect of anything you can do. Shoot them to the ground with a spinal and they will still fight with you just fine. May not move the legs, but the punches and bites and all that still happen, and I'd imagine the stabs, slashes, and gunshots. So that steel plate covering vitals? It may well work fine for them to inflict damage on you.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I agree, but it does "work", and it is the kind of poor methhead trash I'd expect to encounter. Some plate with truckbed liner on it will work just fine. You have to understand methheads don't care if they catch a face full of frag or whatever. You ever fight them? You have to SHUT. THEM. DOWN. There is zero pain compliance or psychological effect of anything you can do. Shoot them to the ground with a spinal and they will still fight with you just fine. May not move the legs, but the punches and bites and all that still happen, and I'd imagine the stabs, slashes, and gunshots. So that steel plate covering vitals? It may well work fine for them to inflict damage on you.
    I have, actually, and have found a LL round to the chest followed by “hands on” to be surprisingly effective. Anecdotes are like assholes, though, and 50gr TSX goes through steel like butter.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    I have, actually, and have found a LL round to the chest followed by “hands on” to be surprisingly effective. Anecdotes are like assholes, though, and 50gr TSX goes through steel like butter.
    My experience is what I detailed above. Lead on target, spine clipped, but them hands still trying to deal some hate. That's why I like something that delivers the trauma as much as possible. Tear stuff up.
    As to 50gr TSX, nah, she don't. Not out of the shorter barrels like 16", anyway. Now if you're using the varmint gun, okay.
    Last edited by WS6; 07-02-22 at 10:07.

  9. #49
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    I like options…

    For example, my 11.5” AR pistol with Griffin Bushwhacker 46 is in my truck most of the time I’m outside of my home (unless it can’t be there… going to Canada, for example). It is a good option if I’m off duty, and some nut goes to shoot up the Walmart (if I’m lucky enough to be near the truck when it happens). Or an option if I’m at certain places while working that doesn’t have long guns assigned to the outport.

    But my TAC-14 does get tossed into the back seat plenty of times… mainly when going to work. Personally, a short barreled weapon shooting 12 Gauge is perfect for my job… where we have vehicles/people usually within 30 yard distances. Boston decided we didn’t need them… so we only have M4s. I disagree with that, but if we need to deploy a shotgun, at least one is somewhat nearby. If I’m heading somewhere that the AR pistol can’t go… I’ll swap in the TAC-14, as it is more “safe” option.

    Similarly at home, I have a 20” 870 Police in my closet… loaded with Winchester PDX1 (slug and buckshot). Works perfect from the second floor and if I need to go downstairs… I know where it is safe to shoot and where not.

    But that isn’t the only firearm I have access to. Depending on if it is a work day or not… either my issued Glock 19 or my 9mm S&W 642-1 is out. Also have anywhere from 2-3 ARs available… suppressed and unsuppressed. Will be more streamlined when my ex finally moves out and don’t have to worry about her daughter… but I don’t view one gun being the answer to everything.

    While I doubt I’ll have a Zero Dark 30 assault on my home… I know I’m in L/E and know that there are some major pieces of human garbage that have a problem with me because of it. A few weeks back, we had an officer heading home that a car flew by him and brandished a rifle with a drum magazine. I don’t really agree with the response (or lack there of) that the officer took or how indiscreet he was that day (and continues to be)… but I could guarantee that if it were reversed, either it would have been an arrest or a shooting. Someone makes the conscious decision to come to my house, I will call 911… after everything is secured.

    Not saying everyone is in a similar boat or should have multiple long(er) guns… but one gun isn’t always the best for all situations. Just like what works for one person doesn’t necessarily mean it works for all.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    Sounds like you’ve got it figured out. SeriousStudent is knowledgeable on this topic.
    Gracias. As payback for summoning the Kraken, a long speech follows.

    In the words of Pat Rogers (God rest his soul): "Mission drives the gear train."

    In the words of SeriousStudent (that would be me): "Frequency and fluency assist proficiency."

    If you have made a choice based on long experience with a particular platform, rock on.

    If you have achieved what my friend John Hearne defines as "automaticity", rock on.

    There are numerous firearms that I own that I honestly don't have to think about, they just run for me. Some of you are likely the same way. Moving through a course of fire, or a landscape or a building, you literally will the shots to happen. Brain says "Hey, I need to shoot that" and rounds go into the target. You have a failure to eject, and you automagically perform a tap-rack-bang drill.

    A fair number of you have done that and not really noticed it happened until one of your friends said something. Euro, 1168, MarkM - I'll bet a really nice steak and a beer you guys have had that happen.

    If you have that level of proficiency with a firearm - use that.

    Do I have a shotgun next to the bed at night? Yeah, I do. "But the wretched man is an old fossil, and it's probably some ridiculous coach gun with exposed hammers firing black powder loads......"

    The reasons for that shotgun: Location, effectiveness and mission.

    Location: I live in a major metropolitan area in Texas, that becomes more blue every day. The "optics" are a very real thing. Shooting someone in my house that does not leave when ordered is not a small thing. The likelihood on only needing to fire a single round of Federal Flite Control 8-pellet 00 Buck (LE13200) is pretty good. It's more likely that I would need to fire more than one round out of a pistol, rifle, SBR or PCC.

    On optics - I do believe after a lot of study and and a couple of thousand hours of civilian self-defense training, that I'm less likely to face criminal indictment or civil lawsuit, if I reduce the number of rounds I fire. That reinforces my desire to use a shotgun for home defense. And just for giggles, I'm doing the Force Science Institute's week-long "Use of Force" expert witness class. Because I'm a glutton for punishment.

    Effectiveness: Shotguns work. I have seen a lot of shotgun wounds. I have not treated many of them. For those who are mathematically-challenged, that means the odds are in my favor with a shotgun.

    Recoil can be tamed. If you know how to use the "Push-Pull" method that was popularized by Robb Haught, and taught by many others, you can run a shotgun very effectively. Pushing forward on the fore-end, and pull back on the stock. Act as if you are trying to tear the shotgun into two pieces at the receiver. I can do a three-day class this way with no brusies wearing a T-shirt. I've seen me do it.

    And short-stroking is a thing. I would honestly recommend a GOOD semi-auto for that reason. I own multiple Beretta 1301's, Benelli M2's, and they are very, very reliable. I honestly don't know how many pump guns I own, probably two dozen.

    You can definitely short-stroke a shotgun, I have done it, as have many others. The shotgun next to my bedside these days is either a Beretta 1301 of some sort, or some variation on a Benelli M2.

    Mission: I'm not clearing houses. Not even my own. I'm bunkering down behind a deadbolted solid-core wood door in the master bedroom, and hitting a button that turns on every light in the house, plus all the exterior lights. There's a old cell phone plugged into a charger on the nightstand, on the far side of the room from the door. Dial 911 on speaker, and chamber a round.

    Shotgun are a lot like mortars. They are large tubes, that use a larger round, and have to be manually loaded. Just like mortars, they are devastating when used from a fixed position by a trained operator. A couple of you have likely been on the receiving end of mortars. The suck factor is pretty high when that happens, ain't it?

    Think about your situation.
    If you are going to have to clear your house to snatch up/locate loved ones, then a pistol with a weapon mounted light AND a separate handheld light; or a suppressed carbine/SBR looks mighty attractive, right?

    For those of you who have cleared buildings, you know that a one-man clear pretty much pegs the Suck-O-Meter, and is the second to last choice. Last choice being listening to a loved one being raped/murdered, of course.

    If you have the advantage of holing up in a hardened room and denying entry into that room, I would humbly submit a shotgun is a supportable option.

    And ponder this - a SBS with a 14" or shorter barrel extends from the body about as much as a service pistol does, at the low ready.

    If you do use a shotgun, just remember to pattern it with the specific load you pick, at useful distances. EVERY shotgun has a unique pattern. Inside my house, that is a lasered zero to 16.7 meters. I would politely suggest that from 3-25 meters, a shotgun is an eminently suitable choice.

    I do not have a dog in this fight - you do. Use what you like and feel comfortable with. If that is a shotgun, carbine, pistol, icepick, rabid Chihuahua - do it. And best of luck to you.

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