Anyone else still use a shotgun for HD?

[C-grunt]

Ive never seen someone continue to fight after taking a proper defensive load to the chest or head. I did see one guy that took a round of 00 buck through the side run about 10-15 feet before he died. Usually though they fall where they stood.

On the other hand a few years back I got in a gunfight with a guy whacked out on meth. Shot him with my Colt 6920 using Federal TRU 55 grain Gameking. The round went through his forearm, entered his chest just below his arm pit, shredded his lung, and then punched through his heart. Dude flinched a little bit. I initially thought I missed him because he barely reacted. He then charged at me and pointed his pistol at me again. The second shot hit him in the lower chest, blew up his liver, ripped his diaphragm, and lodged in his spine. Only then did he finally lay down.

All that being said, an AR is my primary HD weapon. Ive used it professionally for 20 years now. Like SeriousStudent says, I can run the gun without even thinking about it. I'll trade the familiarity and other benefits outlined by others over the step up in lethality.

[AndyLate]

I was reading Serious Student's post and his mention of "push-pull" made me smile.

I was at the public range a few years ago shooting my 590A1 next to a middle aged couple shooting a pump 20 gauge (rather obviously teaching the wife in case she needed it for defense). The wife was listening to the husband and putting pattern on target but obviously getting thumped with recoil. She must have noticed that my shotgun was not bothering me and asked for pointers when her old man went to the can. I explained/demonstrated "push-pull" then hubby came back and she cranked off a round. The look she shot him was priceless when the technique worked.

I don't pretend to have a base of knowledge to weigh in on using a scatter gun for defense.

Andy

[Dennis]

I probably went to as many shotgun as carbine classes back in the late 90s and 00s because there was little to no chance of getting duty rifles. Including at least a couple Rob Haught classes. Then when rifles were eventually authorized Kamala personally screwed us over and delayed it even longer... So I ended up with an 870 then eventually a Benelli M4 with slugs. For my duty purposes it fills a niche for my role and I can run it as well as a carbine.

That said my HD logic is different than others here. I want maximum flexibility in being able to choose and execute options. Not only for today's political world but for my family's safety as well. How fast can I make quick accurate hits? Can I maneuver tight spaces? Knowing how well I can do this lets me execute more options to include movement, observation, and verbal. Meaning I can give commands to some asshole knowing I have him dead to rights, or more importantly I can deal with a family member being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

For this in addition to my EDC G19.5 RMR I keep a MK18ish next to my bed. Sort of an obvious choice I guess but I think legally safer in the fact that I feel it gives me options and I may not even have to use it depending on the situation...

Hope that makes sense to someone

Dennis.



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[202]

An AR rifle is my primary home defense weapon. But imho a shotgun is still a good choice.

[WS6]

I was reading Serious Student's post and his mention of "push-pull" made me smile.

I was at the public range a few years ago shooting my 590A1 next to a middle aged couple shooting a pump 20 gauge (rather obviously teaching the wife in case she needed it for defense). The wife was listening to the husband and putting pattern on target but obviously getting thumped with recoil. She must have noticed that my shotgun was not bothering me and asked for pointers when her old man went to the can. I explained/demonstrated "push-pull" then hubby came back and she cranked off a round. The look she shot him was priceless when the technique worked.

I don't pretend to have a base of knowledge to weigh in on using a scatter gun for defense.

Andy

I've tried this "push-pull", as best I understand it. I think of it as "drawing a bow" and am, for lack of better terms, pushing the gun forward with 40% of my total force (not straining or going crazy, I mean 40% of the force being USED, not 40% as hard as I CAN), and pulling it back to me with 60%, so that the effect is "tension on the gun" with it still resting against my shoulder snugly.

What this tends to do is under strings of fire, it will result in my support hand sliding forward some and into my light.

It also doesn't seem to really control the weapon a whole heap of a lot better, if any at all.

What I have trended toward now, is just shooting it like a carbine. It's not like it really kicks anyway, so I run it like a 5.56 gun.

What have I missed?

[Dennis]

I have had great luck with push/pull although I don't really need it anymore with a Benelli M4 and low recoil duty ammo.

It does take some work to get used to...

Use your primary hand to pull the gun into your shoulder just enough to hold it in place. Then use your forward hand to push it away and create tension, maybe 50-75% as hard as you are pulling. On 870s, this helps the unlocking process and makes reloads faster. With a Surefire forend it can help to have the light hump between a V of your ring and index finger. You definitely need a tight grip which is what you probably noticed during your strings of fire.

Hope this helps!

Dennis.



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[Eurodriver]

Gracias. As payback for summoning the Kraken, a long speech follows.

In the words of Pat Rogers (God rest his soul): "Mission drives the gear train."

In the words of SeriousStudent (that would be me): "Frequency and fluency assist proficiency."

If you have made a choice based on long experience with a particular platform, rock on.

Snip for brevity

I do not have a dog in this fight - you do. Use what you like and feel comfortable with. If that is a shotgun, carbine, pistol, icepick, rabid Chihuahua - do it. And best of luck to you.

Excellent post. I have no idea how to use a shotgun under stress. Can I shoot clays? Yes. I even have a 20” 590A1 with an Aimpoint on it.

But at 3AM if I short stroke it or have a failure to feed? Dead in the water.

I bet I could clear an AR malfunction while upside down and blindfolded. (And before anyone says that’s easy - have you been in a HEAT or Helo rollover sim?)

(Oddly my plunger has been getting stuck the last 3/4” so the last round doesn’t feed properly. I don’t even know where to begin to troubleshoot this)

[WillBrink]

Don't get me wrong, I have AR-15's.
But the long gun in my bedroom is an 870 loaded with 7 #1 buckshot Rem Express rounds. That's 16 .30 cal pellets @1250fps per shot.
Of course I have other buckshot rounds also including Fed Flight Control rounds in #4 buck, #1 buck, and 00 buck.
I got my first 870 when I was 15, hunted everything around here with that. I and am very comfortable with an 870.
I know that hitting an intruder in my house with this round is going to make a mess of the walls, but so what. I have a can of drywall spackle and a putty knife.

I just don't see the value of it to an AR all things considered if using a long gun and it appears vast majority of your BTDT that types concur. Obviously not a poor choice for HD, but it just seems there's better options now. Only thing in the shotgun world that interested me for HD is the Remington V3 Tac-13, but I don't know anything about the quality or reliability, and regardless, will never buy another Remington product:

[WillBrink]

Ive never seen someone continue to fight after taking a proper defensive load to the chest or head. I did see one guy that took a round of 00 buck through the side run about 10-15 feet before he died. Usually though they fall where they stood.

On the other hand a few years back I got in a gunfight with a guy whacked out on meth. Shot him with my Colt 6920 using Federal TRU 55 grain Gameking. The round went through his forearm, entered his chest just below his arm pit, shredded his lung, and then punched through his heart. Dude flinched a little bit. I initially thought I missed him because he barely reacted. He then charged at me and pointed his pistol at me again. The second shot hit him in the lower chest, blew up his liver, ripped his diaphragm, and lodged in his spine. Only then did he finally lay down.

All that being said, an AR is my primary HD weapon. Ive used it professionally for 20 years now. Like SeriousStudent says, I can run the gun without even thinking about it. I'll trade the familiarity and other benefits outlined by others over the step up in lethality.

Very interesting story, thanx for telling that. I just wanted to bold that part as every LEO I know/spoken with who has been involved in OIS, said the same thing. I think no matter how well we know that's a thing, we are still conditioned due to decades 1000 of shows and movies watched, that when shot, people show obvious signs of being shot in various ways, and until you experience it (I have not) just can't fully appreciate the reality of it when they show no obvious outward signs of being shot. Obviously that's especially true of handgun loads in typical duty loads, but even long gun in some cases. I may have to use your write up as another example and reminder!

[flenna]

I would not chose a shotgun as my primary HD long gun but would not feel undergunned if it was my only long gun for HD. I have a lot of time on a pump gun due to it being our only authorized long gun at the PD long before patrol rifles were normalized. Once patrol rifles became standard the 12 gauge was relegated to less than lethal use, but I digress.