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Thread: Help me decide / educate me on buffers.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedupflyer View Post
    Who authored this chart? The source is as important as the chart.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    While this is true, the H2 buffer was developed with the lightweight barrel in 1999.
    It boggles my mind that the carbine and H1 buffers were ever thought to be adequate. The latter being decent, but still. How can the right buffer weight be so hard to figure out from the start?
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    While this is true, the H2 buffer was developed with the lightweight barrel in 1999.
    That may be, and I respect your expertise, but, at least into the mid-2000s, the H1 was installed in gov’t profile barreled M4s and M4a1s in SOF. I distinctly remember my (Crane trained) armorer going on rants that I didn’t understand at the time about how we were supposed to be using heavier buffers with our NT4s. I was like “dude, can we shoot these ****ing things, or what?”.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    It boggles my mind that the carbine and H1 buffers were ever thought to be adequate. The latter being decent, but still. How can the right buffer weight be so hard to figure out from the start?
    An H2 or H3 is simply not needed in most cases with semi auto guns friend.

    I have plenty of AR pattern carbines that came with 'carbine' buffers and they shoot just fine as is...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DG23 View Post
    An H2 or H3 is simply not needed in most cases with semi auto guns friend.

    I have plenty of AR pattern carbines that came with 'carbine' buffers and they shoot just fine as is...
    This has been my experience. I have some guns with H1-H3 buffers that do seem to be smoother but I have similar guns as far as gas/barrel length that run standard carbine buffers that are equally reliable; IE 100%. Can't name an exact number, but something like 20+ bought/sold over the years.
    Last edited by OutofBatt3ry; 07-05-22 at 20:10.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutofBatt3ry View Post
    This has been my experience. I have some guns with H1-H3 buffers that do seem to be smoother but I have similar guns as far as gas/barrel length that run standard carbine buffers that are equally reliable; IE 100%. Can't name an exact number, but something like 20+ bought/sold over the years.
    I think I have 6 right now with carbine buffers in them. At least 2 of which are factory Colt carbines and 2 (in current use) that are bull barreled carbine length gas and barrel. (a good bit heavier than a SOCOM barrel FWIW)

    (yeah guys, Colt actually made and sold carbines with carbine buffers)

    And I got plenty that came with (or I built with) the heavier buffers...


    The buffer weight is only one part of it. Just like the barrel weight is one part and the gas port size is one part. I would even go so far as to say the chamber matters as far as the 'felt recoil' or speed / action of the cycling is concerned.

    Just because a guy has a heavy barrel - does not alone mean he just 'has to have' a heavy buffer for things to work correctly.

    And then being semi auto...
    Last edited by DG23; 07-05-22 at 21:33.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17K View Post
    M4 or pencil? I knew it’s been around for awhile, but thought it was first put to widespread use with the M4A1.
    When the M4 was first designed they had a 5.4 oz steel buffer with three steel weights. This design did not work at all, they had to stop testing due to the number of failures to fire. (Just to let you know what was considered unacceptable 40 FTF out of 5000 rounds.) It order to continue development testing an expedient of using Colt's Standard aluminum, three steel weight buffer was substituted, while a permanent solution was found. Some things tested in 1987:

    - A solid steel buffer, which bounced so bad they couldn't get a full three round burst off.
    - A buffer filled with lead shot, that worked acceptably, and
    - A buffer with tungsten carbide weights, that worked acceptably.

    Meanwhile, the Standard buffer was also working acceptably, and the lead and tungsten carbine filled buffer were projected to have a unacceptable cost, so the Standard buffer was chosen.

    Fast forward to 1999, when all the M4s and M4A1 still had the "Government" profile barrel, M4A1s in acceptance testing (with the standard buffer) started to experience a rash of light primer strikes, indicative of bolt bounce.

    This was investigated and eventually resulted in the H2 buffer being adopted as standard on all M4s and M4A1s on 21 January 2003..

    Why did it suddenly start being an issue after several years of M4 production? The answer lies in the difference between the M4 and the M4A1 - three round burst vs full automatic fire.

    The Standard buffer was marginal at preventing bounce. Even as such, bolt bounce did not automatically lead to failure to fire on every round, it was an intermittent problem, maybe once in a dozen or so magazines did the timing line up so that the hammer fell at peak bounce, and sometimes the hammer could muscle through and get the round fire. With the three round burst limit there were only 20 chances for a bounce related stoppage, in full auto, there are 29*. Then there is also a peculiar behavior of the urethane buffer bumper, The elastic recovery time is longer than the cycle time by a wide margin, so after the three or so shots the buffer bumper get continuously compressed until it reaches an equilibrium point. And as it compresses, it get harder and less "bouncy", so the cyclic rate speeds up ever so slightly. So, with the M4, just as bumper gets to the point where it is likely to have problematic bounce start to occur, you stop shooting.


    ___________
    * Two 30 round magazines are fired the first in semi for targeting and accuracy, as well ans semi-auto function and the second in full auto to measure the cyclic rate and functionality.
    Last edited by lysander; 07-05-22 at 21:56.

  8. #28
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    Just an update to my question, I weighed my current buffer today on a postal scale; weighed in at 4.3 oz. Somewhere between an H and an H2 as I understand it. So I guess I’m just going to continue to use the current buffer, based on its weight.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    When the M4 was first designed they had a 5.4 oz steel buffer with three steel weights. This design did not work at all, they had to stop testing due to the number of failures to fire.
    Do you know why this design failed? Was it because the floating weights were too small a fraction of the total buffer mass?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    This was investigated and eventually resulted in the H2 buffer being adopted as standard on all M4s and M4A1s on 21 January 2003..
    .
    Was there a program to replace buffers in existing M4A1s that were made before that date?
    RLTW

    Former Action Guy
    Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.

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