The Patrol Rifle of Yesteryear in FBI Protocol gel testing: .351 WSL, Winchester 1907

[Ned Christiansen]

I feel like I made a little history this week in Patrol Rifle class. Or revealed it, perhaps.
The Winchester Model 1907 in .351 WSL caliber is well-known of as a favorite rifle of deer hunters for a time, and, of course, G-Men and gangsters. Name the gangster shootout and chances are there was an ’07 there on one side or the other, or both. 180 grain bullets of .351 diameter at 1800-plus FPS, well it’s no .30-06 but it’s not nothing, either.
In each 5-day class we do FBI-protocol ballistic gel testing to show students what the capabilities and limitations are of their AR15’s. I waited until it was over, and pounced on two fresh blocks of gel left over.
My big question was, were the 180-grain soft points in use at the time any good? My presumption was that they were not, based on another presumption that the whole expanding bullet thing was far from fully developed then. While I’ve been through some info regarding the guns and their progression through the years of manufacture (1907-1956 with ~59,000 made), I’m not sure when the soft points came out. Ammo in the caliber is long out of production….. I make my own from .357 Maximum cases. You can still buy old stock but it is expensive. I recently acquired a handful of unpackaged vintage ammo of mixed brands (UMC and WRA). I don’t know how old they were but they had the soft point bullets- between UMC and WRA they were almost identical looking.
Into the gel they went, and here are the results. I was pleased to see that I was wrong about this bullet. It performed rather well and if you look at the FBI specs, these .351’s came very close to staying within those standards.
V- velocity
P- penetration
R- retained weight
D- diameter expanded to
Retrieval:

Through heavy clothing:

Through Bonnie and Clyde’s windshield. If you look at the pictures from that day, and confirmed by a little research into auto glass, by that time laminated windshields had already been in use for a few years. The "1890" should be 1819:

[OutofBatt3ry]

Nice little write-up. That round will certainly get the job done.

[Ned Christiansen]

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[Ned Christiansen]

(Something I posted a year ago, elsehwere):After hours: Deer season is coming up, time to get the Winchester Model 1907 out again (ref post of Nov. 19th 2020). found for maybe $200 / box, and some custom loaders offer it, but it is not really that big a deal to make it. Take .357 Maximum brass, turn the rim down, cut an extractor groove, shorten the case. Add some 4227 and a Hawk JSP at about 1800 and you have an OK deer round. The original loading was a 180 JSP very similar to these.

This gun and cartridge was a favorite of lawmen and outlaws in the 20’s and 30’s. Somewhere in the vast expanse of the internet, within the last year, I ran across a site where people were discussing “go back in time and select better weapons for our troops, WWI and WWII” or something like that. These ‘07’s did see some use in WWI by the French as air-to-air rifles, but…. I think they’d have been great in the trenches too. Bigger magazines, say 20 rounds….. double-stack had already been done. Cut barrel to 14”—I don’t think this cartridge would miss the 20” barrel much. The 07’s predecessor was the ’05, in .35 SL, basically the same cartridge but shorter. And weak enough to have earned the name “the must useless rifle cartridge ever offered”. The ’05 was also offered in .32 SL….. also pretty weak and yet it is said to have been the basis for the .30 M1 Carbine round. One thing to keep in mind through is that all the WSL’s to include the mighty .401 WSL, were straight blowback—no locked breech, just a massive bolt. The .401 generates the muzzle energy of a .30-30, with an unlocked bolt.

For the “use it in WWI” exercise I might say switch it to a .30 caliber. Neck down the .351 WSL case, make it rimless (it is semi-rimmed)….. I’m picturing something like the .300 Whisper. Now that the Whisper is SAAMI-codified as the .300 AAC Blackout, we know it is meant to run at the same pressure as .223: 55,000 PSI max. Not sure we can make that compatible with straight blowback and since the .351 WSL predates SAAMI (and the Model T Ford!), I can only guess what pressures it might run at, I’m thinking 36-38,000. The late-WWII 7.92X33 for the Sturmgewehr (STG44 / MP44) had a 123 grain Spitzer at 2250fps, at 49,300 PSI. Well, within that 38K PSI parameter I’m thinking one of these 07’s might run .300 Whisper with, say, the original .30-06 bullet of 150 grains at close to 1900-ish FPS— ballistically speaking, pretty superior to the .30 M1 Carbine (40,000 PSI max) that would not come along for another 25 years. 14” barrel? I’d talk to Mr. Maxim about what he could do for us without lengthening it more than another 4”.

Left to right, .357 Maximum case, one of last year’s empties made from same, one in the chuck getting the business, a 180 Hawk above it, and on the right a handload with a cast 180 round nose.


That is not rust on the chuck, it is walnut dust!

[Ned Christiansen]

The "1890" velocity is a miscomm, should be 1819.

[gaijin]

Very cool project.

Frank Hamer was a fan of the Remington model 8 in .35 caliber, which he used in the ambush of Bonnie and Clyde to good effect. Vehicles bodies were steel then, .45 ACP out of a Thompson was not a reliable penetrator.

"Frank Hamer had owned an engraved Remington Model 8 in .30 caliber for years and knew well the excellent qualities of the weapon. He opted for a larger caliber to deliver more punch to the target. He ordered the standard .35 from Jake Petmeckey’s store in Austin, Texas and was shipped serial number 10045. Hamer also contacted the Peace Officer Equipment Company in St. Joseph, Missouri for it’s “police only” 20 round magazine for the Remington rifle."

My only experience with a full on "Wildcat" was a .450 Alaskan.
I had a roached mod. 71 Winchester (.348 Winchester) re-barreled (Pac-Nor) and chambered in .450. Ben Forkin did the re-barrel/chambering for me.
Ammo/cases were made from .50/110/500 brass, which was occasionally available 20 years ago. For someone used to reloading at that time on a 1050 Dillon (.38 Super), loading this cartridge was an entirely new experience; shortening/neck sizing/fire form/etc.
Load work up and dial in from the bench with 450 or 500 gr. bullets was an "adventure" as well.
From memory a 450 gr. Barnes S.P. was running 2250 FPS with H322.
It was, for all purposes, a slightly toned down .458 Win Mag- from a lever gun, with way too much drop at the comb- which accentuated recoil.

Yours looks like a fun project Ned.

[ThirdWatcher]

Frank Hamer was the first man to come to mind when I started reading this post.

[Ned Christiansen]

I will be doing the Remington Model 8 at 500 too, maybe this fall. I'm in the process now of collecting brass and factory ammo in .35 Remington.

Regarding the .351, how do you get a .351 to land even close to the target at 500? I calculated 19', that's nineteen feet, of drop. I made a sight from Kydex, put it on with contact cement and Gorilla tape. Being of almost no mass, it didn't shift around in recoil. I guessed about right; the peep was drilled in with, shall we say, not a lot of precision, just "way high". But it was actually pretty close. I had to hold maybe another 3' high and about 3' of wind. This gun in the trenches of WWI? Totally legit in my mind. Put a robust rear sight on it with some quick elevation adjustments, add some protection for the front sight, maybe add some kind of protection rails for the cocking plunger, and >poof< you're in business. Mud and debris? look how wide-open the bolt guns were. The Model 07 is full enclosed. OK, add a dust cover maybe, and it's as tight as anything since.


Oh, and 10-round mags of course. Maybe 15. I think 20 would be too cumbersome unless they made 'em double stack.... it had already been done at that time. Look at what I think is the coolest .32 ever, the Savage Model 1907. Ten round double-stack mags....! And in a semi-rimmed cartridge, as is the .351.