FBI's 1987 handgun testing

[Slater]

Interesting historical document. In the reliability testing, the Beretta 92 had a malfunction rate of 1 per 1166 rounds (0.08%) while the Glock 17 had a malfunction rate of 1 per 47 rounds (2.11%). James Reeves remarked that during this era the FBI was pretty firmly in the .45 ACP camp:

"For the purposes of this evaluation, any failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to eject, or failure to chamber a round or any other stoppage which prevented firing, (but which could have been remedied by the shooter) was considered a malfunction. Any malfunction rate greater than 1 malfunction per 200 rounds (005%) is unacceptably high."

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digiti...13821NCJRS.pdf

[WillBrink]

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digiti...13821NCJRS.pdf

From that doc:

"As a result of the controversy, a Wound Ballistics
Workshop was formed. Nationally recognized experts in various
fields pertinent to the subject of handgun wounding and wounding
effects were invited to attend. The purpose of the Workshop,
which occurred during the period september 15-17, 1987, was to
analyze 'and identify wounding factors, examine their effects upon
the human target, and make recommendations as to calibers and/or
bullets which would best realize the goal of immediate
incapacitation, relative to the tactical realities of law
enforcement usage"

Best line in that paper:

"When potential violence is reasonably anticipated, preparations are
characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible."

From that came what is the seminal doc on the topic and a must read:


Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA July 14, 1989

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

[WillBrink]

Double posting

[TomMcC]

I found the malfunction rate for the two Glocks to be a bit suspect and I'm not a Glock guy.

Nothing against S & W, but the whole protocol sounded like they really wanted the 645. Maybe I just perceived it wrong.

[SteyrAUG]

I found the malfunction rate for the two Glocks to be a bit suspect and I'm not a Glock guy.

Nothing against S & W, but the whole protocol sounded like they really wanted the 645. Maybe I just perceived it wrong.

Absolutely correct, after the 1986 Miami shootout they were moving completely away from 9mm and .38 spcl and towards .45 and then 10mm. Platt and Matix changed the FBI in a day.

[Ron3]

I suspect hard-primer ammo and mediocre Gen 1 mags caused some Glock problems.

They mention a Glock mag disassembling during shooting, too.

Funny that the Sigs had drop-safety issues. No firing pin block?

[TomMcC]

I suspect hard-primer ammo and mediocre Gen 1 mags caused some Glock problems.

They mention a Glock mag disassembling during shooting, too.

Funny that the Sigs had drop-safety issues. No firing pin block?

European ammo is kind of known for it's harder primers. I would have thought that Gaston and the boys took that into account, but maybe not.

I can't remember...did Glock change their base plates? For at least 10 yrs and probably longer, their mags haven't been the easiest mags to disassemble.

[Slater]

Both SIG's failed the trigger guard impact test:

"Failed hammer blow to trigger guard test. When struck on the trigger guard with a rawhide mallet, the trigger guard bent up against the bottom of the trigger rendering the weapon inoperative. The trigger could not be moved, nor could the hammer, and thus the slide was frozen shut."

[flenna]

The Miami Shootout was a pivotal moment for the FBI and, in turn, all law enforcement when it came to issued handguns and ammunition (like how the BoA shootout started the patrol rifle). The wonder round of the 1990s, the .40 S&W, came out of it since the FBI wanted their 10mm rounds downloaded. On a related note the department I was with adopted the G21 around 1994. Our armorers and a few volunteers took Glocks, Sigs and Smiths and shot them, abused them and randomly beat the snot out of them for a few weeks. The Glock was the only one that fired every single time. Anecdotal, maybe, but noteworthy nonetheless even if you think it proves nothing. I was issued a Gen2 model and that big, blocky thing never failed me.

[SteyrAUG]

Both SIG's failed the trigger guard impact test:

"Failed hammer blow to trigger guard test. When struck on the trigger guard with a rawhide mallet, the trigger guard bent up against the bottom of the trigger rendering the weapon inoperative. The trigger could not be moved, nor could the hammer, and thus the slide was frozen shut."

Sounds like a test designed to render a desired result. Every dropped SIG I've ever seen that happened to fall slide up, impacted the bottom of the grip and the bottom edge of the front slide. I don't think I've ever seen contact with the actual trigger guard.

They really wanted those 645s. It's sorta stupid that there is so much bureaucracy that the FBI has to custom manufacture test conditions to get the gear they feel they need. Kinda funny that they are currently back to 19s and 17s after the whole 45/10mm/40 experience.