FBI's 1987 handgun testing

[Slater]

I don't think the document mentions it, but I wonder what generation Glocks were used in the testing? This being 1987, presumably Gen 1 or 2?

[Renegade]

The wonder round of the 1990s, the .40 S&W, came out of it since the FBI wanted their 10mm rounds downloaded.

They got their 10mm rounds downloaded with the 1076. Federal Made a 180gr@950 fps just for them. S&W figured out they could put that load in a shorter case and and a standard frame, and called it 40S&W. FBI would be one of last to adopt 40S&W in the 90s, not moving to it until 1997 or so.

[gsd2053]

They got their 10mm rounds downloaded with the 1076. Federal Made a 180gr@950 fps just for them. S&W figured out they could put that load in a shorter case and and a standard frame, and called it 40S&W. FBI would be one of last to adopt 40S&W in the 90s, not moving to it until 1997 or so.

They had to get professional enough first.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

I was around back then (I was in HS, but I spent my weekends with my buddies who worked at the biggest local gunship). The Glock had a few rough patches in the 80s. It was a new gun from new (to guns) company. I have no reason to believe the malfunctions from the Glocks were faked. Back then every gunshop was filled with the sounds of guys behind the counter explaining away Glock malfunctions with "limp-wristing."

Glock addressed most of the issues in various "product improvement" recalls in 90, 92, 93. It was easier to keep your reputation clean before the internet. These recalls addressed issues like "The slide locking back on a full magazine, Failure to lock into battery because the barrel lug drags on the slide lock, . The magazine follower tips or sticks in the magazine tube, unintentional discharges when dropped, etc. James either doesn't know about these developments or his Glock sponsorship is clouding his judgement.

Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the Gen 5 Glock and think it is basically perfect. But those first years were pretty rough.

[SteyrAUG]

I was around back then (I was in HS, but I spent my weekends with my buddies who worked at the biggest local gunship). The Glock had a few rough patches in the 80s. It was a new gun from new (to guns) company. I have no reason to believe the malfunctions from the Glocks were faked. Back then every gunshop was filled with the sounds of guys behind the counter explaining away Glock malfunctions with "limp-wristing."

Glock addressed most of the issues in various "product improvement" recalls in 90, 92, 93. It was easier to keep your reputation clean before the internet. These recalls addressed issues like "The slide locking back on a full magazine, Failure to lock into battery because the barrel lug drags on the slide lock, . The magazine follower tips or sticks in the magazine tube, unintentional discharges when dropped, etc. James either doesn't know about these developments or his Glock sponsorship is clouding his judgement.

Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the Gen 5 Glock and think it is basically perfect. But those first years were pretty rough.

I bought a Gen 1 back in 1987 and never had any problems with it other than hating the trigger.

[Harpoon]

Absolutely correct, after the 1986 Miami shootout they were moving completely away from 9mm and .38 spcl and towards .45 and then 10mm. Platt and Matix changed the FBI in a day.

At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.

[Ron3]

At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.

Tactics, procedures & training? "Naw...not us...we're the FBI...Winchester built bad bullets..yup..that's what ruined our day...nothing else...fault of the vendor..."

[SteyrAUG]

At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.

While defensive ammo did exist in 1986, there has been improvement since then. But tactics and expectations are a big part of their failure that day. It literally became a training scenario so many mistakes were made.

One could say the change to 45/10/40 was related to the changes in mindset.

[WillBrink]

While defensive ammo did exist in 1986, there has been improvement since then. But tactics and expectations are a big part of their failure that day. It literally became a training scenario so many mistakes were made.

One could say the change to 45/10/40 was related to the changes in mindset.

I think it's important to stress those improvements were considerable and based on the protocols of the FBI after that event. The understanding of terminal ballistics is much more advanced today, so more effective for stopping goblins.

[yoni]

At first they blamed the 9mm. Because a good hit did not stop Platt. So they eventually went to a 10mm, then a .40, then now back to the 9mm. Go figure.

F==king Bunch of Idiots, blame the hardware and not the tactics.

Since the FBI has got involved in ammo testing they for sure did everyone a favor as all ammo is better. But I think they also stopped round development, in dictating the ideal penetration and expansion.

Maybe some calibers if not aiming for the FBI standards, could even be better than they are. I wonder if some calibers have been held back.