Winchester 64 gr 223 "Defense Tip"

[Diamondback]

Would be awesome if someone knew Doc Roberts and could entice him back into the fold- & IMMEDIATELY 86 anyone who starts anymore shit with him or Molon. These guys bring FACTS & INFO and are very needed here. Molon- thank you for coming back, sir.

I've been looking and haven't been able to find anything from Doc *anywhere* since not long after he put up the "Just A Dentist" avs.

[Straight Shooter]

I've been looking and haven't been able to find anything from Doc *anywhere* since not long after he put up the "Just A Dentist" avs.

Thats a shame. Besides He & Molon, there were a few more here when I came aboard who really knew their stuff, that have been gone for a long time now, due to petty ass troll shit from people who hadnt shot 100 rounds a year in their lives.

[Diamondback]

Thats a shame. Besides He & Molon, there were a few more here when I came aboard who really knew their stuff, that have been gone for a long time now, due to petty ass troll shit from people who hadnt shot 100 rounds a year in their lives.

Be nice, *I* haven't been able to do 100/yr for many years... but at least have the humility to admit I have a lot to learn and seek the "wisdom of the tribe" for when I have the Old Ones squared away and CAN start training more often. Back in college, a hundred rounds was ONE very short session... we were usually doing 60-round courses, and I had to do three (two weakside one strong, kind of an "improvised physical therapy regimen" to help gain more use of my right arm) for each set my buddies did.

[Straight Shooter]

Be nice, *I* haven't been able to do 100/yr for many years... but at least have the humility to admit I have a lot to learn and seek the "wisdom of the tribe" for when I have the Old Ones squared away and CAN start training more often. Back in college, a hundred rounds was ONE very short session... we were usually doing 60-round courses, and I had to do three (two weakside one strong, kind of an "improvised physical therapy regimen" to help gain more use of my right arm) for each set my buddies did.

And YOU my friend, are the way its supposed to be. No need for any explanation...rock on. Youve got a valid reason...the punks I refer to dont.

[Harpoon]

A quick check on Winchesters site shows quite a difference in advertized muzzle velocity.
.223 64 gr Defense tip, 2700 fps.
.223 64 gr Deer Season XP, 3020 fps.

[1168]

A quick check on Winchesters site shows quite a difference in advertized muzzle velocity.
.223 64 gr Defense tip, 2700 fps.
.223 64 gr Deer Season XP, 3020 fps.

Barrel length, probably. Molon got enough more than advertised velocity out of Defense Tip with his 20”, that I suspect W chronoed it in a 16”. And they probably did Deer Season in a 24”.

Fusion and Fusion MSR advertised vs observed velocities are another good example of this.

[Diamondback]

Barrel length, probably. Molon got enough more than advertised velocity out of Defense Tip with his 20”, that I suspect W chronoed it in a 16”. And they probably did Deer Season in a 24”.

Fusion and Fusion MSR advertised vs observed velocities are another good example of this.

Offtopic: My memory's shot, but what was the consensus about which of the two Fusions was "preferred" and which was "it'll do but not as well"? Sorry, estate crap is turning my brain into a scrambled egg even more than usual--just got another recurring bill transferred off my aunt's credit cards and onto my debit card DAYS before it was due to post next charge.

[SeriousStudent]

Doctor Roberts does post in the Ammunition sub-forum over on Pistol-Forum.com.

https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

I certainly would not wish to have his work schedule. He does say really busy, between his teaching and surgical career at one of the top medical schools and hospitals in the world. But if I got shot in the face, I would ask them to fly me to California so he can work on the damage.

Regarding .223 ammo for self defense, I've been split between the Federal Fusion, Speer Gold Dot and the Barnes TSX loads. I do believe Doctor Roberts, Molon and Chuck Haggard recommend that load. I'll ask them and see what they say.

I agree with 1168 on the Fusion loads. From all my research, they seem to work very well harvesting deer or defending you family against human predators.

Hope that helps.

[SeriousStudent]

Offtopic: My memory's shot, but what was the consensus about which of the two Fusions was "preferred" and which was "it'll do but not as well"? Sorry, estate crap is turning my brain into a scrambled egg even more than usual--just got another recurring bill transferred off my aunt's credit cards and onto my debit card DAYS before it was due to post next charge.

Off the top of my head, you might reach out to Chris Baker at Lucky Gunner and ask him.

Chris is just a super guy with a great company, and really knows his ammo and tactics. He will not steer you wrong.

I was in a shotgun class with him a few weeks ago, and it was great to catch up. His articles in the "Lucky Gunner Lounge" on his website are a terrific resource.

Hope that helps.

[Molon]

Federal 62 Grain Fusion vs Federal 62 Grain Fusion MSR vs Speer LE 62 Grain Gold Dot





The muzzle velocities shown in the tables below were obtained back-to-back during the same chronograph session using recent lots of all three of the Fusion/Gold Dot loads chrongographed.

Atmospheric Conditions

Temperature: 73 degrees F (plus or minus one degree)
Barometric Pressure: 29.68 inches of Hg
Humidity: 62%
Altitude: 950 feet above sea level



Muzzle velocities from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist.





Muzzle velocities from a 14.5 Noveske N4 light barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7’ twist.






10-shot groups were fired from one of my precision AR-15s with a Lothar-Walther barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber and a 1:8” twist. The groups were fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards with the same sight settings on the scope for each of the three groups.

















Left to right: 1. 62 grain Fusion, 2. 62 grain Gold Dot, 3. 64 grain Gold Dot, 4. 75 grain Gold Dot


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