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Thread: Load choices for AR SBRs

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    I still have a bunch of the 64gr Gold Dots but it looks like those aren't made anymore. I'm not sure why, but Speer won't make a 5.56mm version. That would be clutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    Odd they would stop producing them. Did they replace them with something else?
    The 62 and 64 GDSPs coexisted for awhile, 62 was thought better* overall. There have been contract variants of the GDSPs that aren't commercially available and some of that info has been posted here and elsewhere. A 5.56 variant of the 62/64 would be beneficial to an SBR or pistol but less so in 14-20", the SBR need is thought to be met with the 75.

    From a 16", the (.223) 62 #24445SP is ~2650. At that speed it's a very accurate load (~MOA) and does well in testing.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    The 62 and 64 GDSPs coexisted for awhile, 62 was thought better* overall. There have been contract variants of the GDSPs that aren't commercially available and some of that info has been posted here and elsewhere. A 5.56 variant of the 62/64 would be beneficial to an SBR or pistol but less so in 14-20", the SBR need is thought to be met with the 75.

    From a 16", the (.223) 62 #24445SP is ~2650. At that speed it's a very accurate load (~MOA) and does well in testing.
    That seems surprisingly slow to me, although not the metric I'd get hung up on per se as the bullet designed to perform at those velocities is what matter most. Myself, interest is in performance at SD/HD distances, so terminal performance is what matters most to me and MOA accuracy a lesser concern/interest. Being able to make up to 100y shots accurately a plus no doubt.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    That seems surprisingly slow to me, although not the metric I'd get hung up on per se as the bullet designed to perform at those velocities is what matter most. Myself, interest is in performance at SD/HD distances, so terminal performance is what matters most to me and MOA accuracy a lesser concern/interest. Being able to make up to 100y shots accurately a plus no doubt.
    Agreed, right tool for the right job, and it is a little slow compared to some others in the weight class.

    And whenever I can have terminal effectiveness and accuracy, I'll take it.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    Agreed, right tool for the right job, and it is a little slow compared to some others in the weight class.

    And whenever I can have terminal effectiveness and accuracy, I'll take it.
    Vs something doing 8k FPS that has poor terminal performance and or barn door MOA, for sure. While obviously important, people who don't fully understand and or appreciate modern bullet designs, get overly focused on velocity I find. All things being equal - and they rarely are - more zip is a good thing.
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  5. #15
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    Here's an interesting article on hydrostatic shock:

    https://www.themeateater.com/wired-t...tic-shock-real

    In 2007, a group of researchers writing in Neurosurgery called hydrostatic shock a “relatively recent myth” concocted by soldiers and hunters to explain observed injuries.

    More recent research, however, points to a strong link between high-pressure bullets and remote neural damage...

    ...In experiments conducted in 2007 and 2011, the Courtneys observed hemorrhaging along the abdominal walls, rear rib cages, and brains of whitetail deer that had been struck by a bullet. These areas were distant from both the permanent crush cavity and the temporary stretch cavity, and the researchers concluded that “the most likely cause of the hemorrhaging was the pressure wave.”

    Other researchers have reached similar conclusions. A famous series of experiments conducted by a team of Swedish scientists in the late 1980s discovered remote injury to peripheral nerves, spinal cords, and brains of pigs that had been shot in the thigh. Research published in 2009 reported “cufflike pattern hemorrhages around small brain vessels” of people who had been shot in the chest, which the researchers attributed to “a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet.”
    Even with the evidence for the efficacy of hydrostatic wounding mechanisms, the article concludes that shot placement is king in a hunting scenario. What has been observed and argued for a long time in defensive or tactical setting is that a significant portion of a rifle's wounding ability has to do with indirect wounding and incapacitation, typically attributed to hydrostatic shock. This has been observed even with the most basic of bullet technologies, the FMJ.

    Pistol wounding characteristics, on the other hand, have always been limited to the damage created by the path of the bullet due to a pistol bullet's much lower velocity as compared to those coming from a rifle. Which explains why so much energy and marketing is poured into developing pistol caliber bullets that create the most tissue disruption possible, while still allowing for sufficient penetration to reach vitals.

    It is my estimation that my slowing down rifle bullets to the point where hydrostatic wounding is mitigated, and then trying to make up for it with expanding or fragmenting bullets is an expensive, loud, and cumbersome way to turn a rifle into a pistol. By neutering what makes a rifle effective, namely velocity, one is relegated to using tech to try and make up some of that lost ground. But no amount of (current) tech will make up for something that only sufficient velocity brings to the table.

    That said, having sufficient velocity AND superior bullet technology is clearly the best of both worlds. However, as the vast preponderance of evidence points, I would rather defend myself with FMJ rifle velocity rounds than the most technologically advanced pistol velocity rounds.
    “You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.” -Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    That seems surprisingly slow to me, although not the metric I'd get hung up on per se as the bullet designed to perform at those velocities is what matter most. Myself, interest is in performance at SD/HD distances, so terminal performance is what matters most to me and MOA accuracy a lesser concern/interest. Being able to make up to 100y shots accurately a plus no doubt.
    Yeah, I have some reman stuff loaded with this bullet and Im getting 2800 out of a 14.5.

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    Here is the question a 35 caliber bullet at 2300fps v a 5.56 bullet at 2300 fps.
    Which has better stopping power or should they be about the same?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    Here is the question a 35 caliber bullet at 2300fps v a 5.56 bullet at 2300 fps.
    Which has better stopping power or should they be about the same?
    That's one of those "on paper" I'd guess yes, but bullet design is a major variable and formal testing required to know what type of temp and perm cavities produced, against barriers, be it thick clothing, etc. Just as example, if the 5.56 yaws and fragments creating multiple wound tracks, and the 35c does not, then it's likely gonna drop goblins better all things being equal. But, unless designed to do so, 2300 is border line for yaw and too low for fragmentation from typical 5.56 FMJ, hence the various bullets in the vids designed to perform well from SBRs at those lower velocities. That's my non SME understanding.
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  9. #19
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    I carried a 10.5 or a 11.5 gun for year with only one kind of ammo available to us. 55 grain, I never was concerned about its ability to kill guys. We never fired one shot and our ranges were 300 down to point blank. If I thought longer range was needed then I might throw my 20 inch upper in my back pack.

    As civilians in the USA, I don't think the chance of a shot being longer away than let's say 150 and I base that on the distance where the first cop at Uvalde saw the scum bag. That would be a fast shot to drop the guy. Believe me that would have been the end even before it got started.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I carried a 10.5 or a 11.5 gun for year with only one kind of ammo available to us. 55 grain, I never was concerned about its ability to kill guys. We never fired one shot and our ranges were 300 down to point blank. If I thought longer range was needed then I might throw my 20 inch upper in my back pack.

    As civilians in the USA, I don't think the chance of a shot being longer away than let's say 150 and I base that on the distance where the first cop at Uvalde saw the scum bag. That would be a fast shot to drop the guy. Believe me that would have been the end even before it got started.
    I been making that point all along in the various threads to date, and the role of SBRs and PDWs for civies is SD/HD distances, and that's all I'm interested and concerned with personally. That's a different issue to that of LE and or mil, and they are far more likley to require a 100y shot legally taken. I understand those who want to be prepared for all possibilities, I tend to be a stats guy who prefers to focus on training, prep, etc for what most may have to deal with most of the time.
    - Will

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    LE/Mil specific info:

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    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

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