Teach Me About Pistol Red Dots

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

What I like about the Ken video are some of the things NOT talked about in regards to the logistics of carrying a red dot. There is a possible offering of the potential con's seen when not on the flat range. I'll admit to being driven nuts waffling back and forth between Trijicons auto brightness setting and managing it when it cycles back on from time to time.

I'd say it's a fair assessment that it's a performance multiplier that comes at certain maintenance costs. When I travel, I now have an electronic optic to pack for (batteries, necessary tools) or in the case of the RMR, plant a fresh battery and confirm zero before I got. Making sure my old guy Goldbond hasn't accrued too much on my lens. And despite witness marks, torque checks and loctite, I average a loose optic about once every year or so. Fun stuff like that. I liken it to electing to carry a 2011/1911 over a Glock. You have chosen a performance advantage that comes at certain expenses (financial, logistical, and maintenance).

IMHO, here are the basic statements in regards to RDS that are wrong:

Pro Dot: "Red dot ALL the things"
Yeah, sometimes it's just nice to have some guns that I know will work without having to double-check electrical crap.

Pro Dot: "I'm so much more (accurate/confident/efficient)"
Neat...have you vetted this outside the flat range?

Pro Dot: "New shooters will immediately benefit...."
Until you can achieve trigger ignition without disruption of the sights, let's not get ahead of ourselves



Anti Dot: "You're not gonna need the advantage as most shootings occur within....(blah, blah, blah)"
Averages are all fun and games until you're an outlier. By this logic, we all just need a J-frame and be done with it...despite the logic that most will never actually use a gun for defensive purposes in their lifetime...statistically speaking of course

Anti Dot: "I tried it for one mag on my friend's gun. I wasn't good at it (and I'm probably not fully aware of my overall ability). I'm going to sh*t all over it from my one 30 second experience"
Did you love beer/whiskey your first time? Could you make an honest assessment about how a car drives your first time EVER behind the wheel? When you lost your virginity, was a it 3-hour+ marathon of sexual mastery?...I'm doubting it.

Anti Dot: "I'm slow at 'x' range and in"
Nah, you were slow before too, you just weren't aware of your inconsistency and sight picture acceptance

Anti Dot: "I've shot this way for 20, 30, 40, 50 years and..."
Despite seeing my first "micro" RDS 30+ years ago on a S&W 39, why do people get all weird about tech like this...given the medium we're debating this matter? Did this stuff happen when we started putting decent sights on stuff..."nah...i'm gonna stuck with this little bump on the front that does nothing...it won't get hung up and slow ma draw"

Fantastic post!

[RHINOWSO]

Then here is the reality.

If the non-RDS crowd doesn't want to use a RDS on a pistol - We Honestly Don't Care What You Do.

We simply challenge assertions that are blatantly false about RDS on a pistol.

So if you prefer your irons, enjoy them. IDGAF!!!!!!

[georgeib]

Then here is the reality.

If the non-RDS crowd doesn't want to use a RDS on a pistol - We Honestly Don't Care What You Do.

We simply challenge assertions that are blatantly false about RDS on a pistol.

So if you prefer your irons, enjoy them. IDGAF!!!!!!

Exactly.

[JediGuy]

@yoni or others interested. The Leupold DP Micro is $200 and in stock as of early 11/19.


https://www.bigtexordnance.com/produ...glock-pistols/

[P2Vaircrewman]

I bought a micro this week based on Yoni's recommendation.

[yoni]

I got the last Leupold Delta Micro last night, I thought I was bidding on a used one. Imagine my delight when I opened the mailer and it was a new sight still wrapped in the nylon.

The twins Grey Ghust framed Glock 34 and 35 wear Delta micros.

The debate is to put the new one on a Glock 32 or 26. I am leaning to the 32, and then put a KKM barrel and comp in it.

Glock 26 is my modern day J frame, so I think I will keep it with Irons

[markm]

Every week we shoot these things, I'm more impressed with the improved distance accuracy. I thought it was a lot to due with the Staccato I like, but we shot some Sig pistols with SRO, and I can shoot those things just as well.

We have steel from 10 to 80 yards in various shapes and sizes. The 80 is an IPSC size deal, and hitting that thing is no big deal.

There's small stuff in the middle that I wouldn't waste ammo trying to hit with irons.

[Averageman]

My Grandfather used to "Point Shoot", draw fire and knock cans or bottles off the fence.
The last time I saw him do that was a joke between him and my Uncle. They were both old time Law Enforcement between the reservation and the border. They were still pretty good as 80 year olds.
When I shoot my "Red Dot Glock", I'm accurate as all hell get out, but when I shoot my IDPA Glock, I'm point shooting like my grandfather showed me and I'm pretty fast.
Between fast and accurate, that's the cutting edge.

[ssc]

Great thread and some very informative info. I do see that some folks are less open to discussion then others. I have not seen any reason to transition my CCW guns to dots. Everyone has to chose their salvation. For me the pros do not outweigh the cons--for my situation. I do have 2 dot equipped pistols and been instructed on how to utilize them. Granted, I have been a USPSA limited shooter for many years and a few years ago started to shoot CO. If I was pushing a patrol car, I think the pros, I see, would have me carrying a dot on duty.

The issue I see is that the range sometimes give misleading feedback. Before my recent health issues, I was getting about as fast with my dots as irons. The dots certainly allowed me to be more accurate at distance. So for me, ccw is all about: 1. 110% reliability, which, to me means KISS. I have seen my share of dots come loose. Perhaps when glock releases the MOS-07, I may rethink that issue. I have seen many dots die--either due to battery or electrical issues. Lastly, I have experienced multiple dots/red smears due to a bad angle from the sun. This is not uncommon. So, for me, I elect not to use dots for ccw. I reserve the right to change my mind as technology advances.

All my dot experience comes from a bit of training on the range. However, the real world is not always like the range. I have reflected on my "encounters" and not one do I feel would have been helped had I had a dot. Here is my conundrum. The dot and most training seems to concentrate on the "presentation." In the real world, one does not always have the choice nor ability nor option to make the perfect presentation. Hence, there is no dot. I have for years run various drills, apart from competition, to attempt to have a chance in real world encounters. This was drummed into my head by my Pops and other relatives who were all LEO from the 1920s-60s. These men had all BTDT multiple times in both domestic LEO duties, as well as off duty situations and many were war vets. I also remember my TO from federal law enforcement making similar comments.

In the real world, you do not always have the opportunity to make a perfect, nor proper "presentation." I know in my situations sometimes, you saw things in enough time to draw properly, but many didn't. Also, carrying your baby makes presentation difficult as does trying to shield/move family members or getting to cover or grappling with a bad guy. Perhaps with enough dot practice it will become transparent. I do know from all my shooting over many years with irons that it is more muscle memory and I don't recall seeing my sights when the SHTF.

Stress and adrenaline do some strange things to the human body. It seems to me that muscle memory via training takes over. Without getting into details, I can relate how the mind plays tricks. In one situation, I have zero knowledge nor recollection of how the gun came out of the holster. Once, I only heard the brass hit the ground. Very strange stuff. Anyway, once I get over this health issue and get back to my training, I may change my mind.

Cheers, Steve

[Wake27]

Great thread and some very informative info. I do see that some folks are less open to discussion then others. I have not seen any reason to transition my CCW guns to dots. Everyone has to chose their salvation. For me the pros do not outweigh the cons--for my situation. I do have 2 dot equipped pistols and been instructed on how to utilize them. Granted, I have been a USPSA limited shooter for many years and a few years ago started to shoot CO. If I was pushing a patrol car, I think the pros, I see, would have me carrying a dot on duty.

The issue I see is that the range sometimes give misleading feedback. Before my recent health issues, I was getting about as fast with my dots as irons. The dots certainly allowed me to be more accurate at distance. So for me, ccw is all about: 1. 110% reliability, which, to me means KISS. I have seen my share of dots come loose. Perhaps when glock releases the MOS-07, I may rethink that issue. I have seen many dots die--either due to battery or electrical issues. Lastly, I have experienced multiple dots/red smears due to a bad angle from the sun. This is not uncommon. So, for me, I elect not to use dots for ccw. I reserve the right to change my mind as technology advances.

All my dot experience comes from a bit of training on the range. However, the real world is not always like the range. I have reflected on my "encounters" and not one do I feel would have been helped had I had a dot. Here is my conundrum. The dot and most training seems to concentrate on the "presentation." In the real world, one does not always have the choice nor ability nor option to make the perfect presentation. Hence, there is no dot. I have for years run various drills, apart from competition, to attempt to have a chance in real world encounters. This was drummed into my head by my Pops and other relatives who were all LEO from the 1920s-60s. These men had all BTDT multiple times in both domestic LEO duties, as well as off duty situations and many were war vets. I also remember my TO from federal law enforcement making similar comments.

In the real world, you do not always have the opportunity to make a perfect, nor proper "presentation." I know in my situations sometimes, you saw things in enough time to draw properly, but many didn't. Also, carrying your baby makes presentation difficult as does trying to shield/move family members or getting to cover or grappling with a bad guy. Perhaps with enough dot practice it will become transparent. I do know from all my shooting over many years with irons that it is more muscle memory and I don't recall seeing my sights when the SHTF.

Stress and adrenaline do some strange things to the human body. It seems to me that muscle memory via training takes over. Without getting into details, I can relate how the mind plays tricks. In one situation, I have zero knowledge nor recollection of how the gun came out of the holster. Once, I only heard the brass hit the ground. Very strange stuff. Anyway, once I get over this health issue and get back to my training, I may change my mind.

Cheers, Steve

There is absolutely room for error with mounting solutions and red dot quality. We’re getting closer to an easy standard but the average gun owner will screw up mounting a pistol RDS far more than a rifle one. I would put a ton of faith into seeing others fail in that sense, personally.

What dots have you used that smear in sunlight?

Agreed on the notion of perfect presentation, that’s why I like the ACSS Vulcan even though it has downsides for others.


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