How much magnification?

[SBRSarge]

Yeah, that's really a deal. Kind of heartbreaking that they only SFP ones...

FFP is definitely more popular for long range work, which might be why they’re blowing the SFP ones out at 60% off. I use the FFP Nightforce 2.5-20s on my two best target guns.

I’ll be using the 3-18 Trijicon for hunting at modest ranges and I like the SFP for that with the larger, easier to see reticle at the low end of magnification. I think it’s going to be my pig hunting optic this fall, even though 18x is way over-kill on a 300 blackout!

[okie]

What you might do is see if you can find a used Leupold Mk4 2.5-10x. That's the scope that was issued throughout SOCOM a few years ago. I have the non illuminated version on my Mk14 clone, and it's a great general purpose marksman scope. Extremely rugged, and very nice glass. Very simple, too. It does what it needs to and isn't cluttered by a ridiculous reticle or unnecessary controls. The illuminated version was a little more than your budget as of a few years ago, but I imagine a gently used one would be right within your price range.

If you can't find one or don't want to take the time to try, Leupold seems to have kind of filled that niche with a new scope called the Mk3HD 3-9x. I'm not sure if the glass is on par with the old Mk4, but that would be something to ask their salespeople. Glass just keeps getting better, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's just as good or maybe even a bit better. It's also very affordable, so you would have plenty of budget left over for a nice mount.

In that price range, I wouldn't go beyond a maximum of about 10x. For one, you're unlikely to use it, and two, you need super high end clarity and light transmission, which is several thousand dollars more than you're wanting to spend. The last thing you want to do is go up in magnification at the cost of clarity, because then you're just creating a situation where you lose speed for the same overall visibility.

I also wouldn't go with a minimum of more than 3x. You're highly unlikely to need to take a shot beyond 100 yards, and more than about 3x would be a severe handicap at those closer ranges. 3x is honestly pushing it a little even, but I think it's doable, and hopefully there would be other officers present to take that kind of shot with an RDS equipped carbine. But if you HAD to do it, you could, especially if you're good at keeping both eyes open using magnified optics, which is easy to do and extremely effective at that magnification and range.

As far as FFP vs SFP, I think you'll be fine with SFP. At distances where you would need to compensate, you would probably be okay zoomed all the way in anyways. In other words, if you're shooting beyond 300 meters, 10x would be an acceptable level of magnification at that range. A bit much, but not unworkable.

[DocV]

Thanks for the input guys.

Okie, I think I'm with you on the SFP.

[okie]

Thanks for the input guys.

Okie, I think I'm with you on the SFP.

One thing people don't mention about FFP is that a reticle that works well at max zoon won't work well at min zoom, even if it's technically the correct proportion. Let's say for example you had a FFP 10-20x. A reticle useful at 1,000 yards at 20x would be way too cluttered for practical shooting at 10x at say 300 yards. So while there are scopes with massive magnification ranges, they still by definition are going to be optimized for whatever range makes sense at their max zoom. Most people are running around out there with way too much scope for their application. Way too much magnification and some cluttered reticle for calculations that you just don't need to be making to hit a man sized target at typical engagement distances.

[SBRSarge]

Okie speaks the truth!

while I love my FFP 2.5-20 Nightforces, at low power the reticle is too small to do much with. If I did it again, I’d have just gotten them in SFP.

[BrigandTwoFour]

Okie had a lot of good data. I'm not in LE, nor am I a sniper, but I do have an interest in these things and I actually just did an updated interview with an LE sniper instructor and author. In the latest edition of his book, intended for LE to learn rifle marksmanship before attending sniper school, he has a really interesting breakdown of LE sniper shootings including distance, time of day, and position used. The data came from the American Sniper Association's Sniper Utilization Survey.

Some quick stuff I noted:

• The average police sniper engagement in the US during 2021 was 56 yards
• The distance with the most shots taken in 2021 was 40 yards
• The longest shot(s) were up to 275 yards
• 98.57% of shots were within 200 yards, and 91.67% of those were within 100 yards
• While prone was the most common position (~54%), standing was the second most common (~23%)
• There's a pretty even distribution of shots around a 24-hour period, with a surge in between 1200 and 1800

The author called out the 78-yard number as something that's floated around for years, supposedly by an FBI study. However, all efforts to actually find that study turned up nothing. The earliest written example of it he could find came from the Orlando PD in the 1980's.

Like I said, I'm not a sniper- but I am a gun and optics nerd. Given the conditions above with a practical range of 0 to 300 yards against a small target (i.e. CNS hit), a requirement to be stable from the standing, and 24-hour time period, I would be looking somewhere in the mid-range magnification with a large (50mm or 56mm) objective. The larger objectives boosts low light performance. SFP or FFP is personal choice, but Okie has a good point about reticle visibility of a FFP optic on the low end.

Something in the 3-18x range makes the most sense to me, with most of the time spend in the middle somewhere. You don't need/want high magnification if you're going to shoot from the standing, as the vibrations and wobble are a problem.

If you can find one, the Steiner P4xi 4-16x56 was a great scope pretty much purpose built for this application. It was a special run ordered by Eurooptic.

[pointblank4445]

The Gun is more than likely going to be a Sig Tread 308, as Dept requires a 308 Semi-auto and we already carry sig side arms. ammo will be M80 or the like for the school and not sure what duty ammo will be.

Uses are urban with sporadic call-outs to assist local agencies that are heavily rural. so we are talking about anything from Airports and residential streets to folks' multi-acre homes. I would say I can't imagine anything past 500 yards. I don't think LE marksmen are doing the same kind of watching that Army sniper did so that's why I was wondering what the stateside experience is like. budget is 1300 or less and I know that might price out some good glass but I if the quality is more important than the mag level then I may get a better glass with a lower top end.

IMHO, you guys are setting your selves up for some major failures or at least waste of resources.

The use of M80 ball for training is going to perform very differently from duty/match that you should be using. This is of course you are allowed into the school and make minimum accuracy parameters with this setup. I know there are several you would struggle to achieve with this rifle/ammo combo.

As a former LE sniper of 11+ years of service, I got to see the attempted integration of a semi-auto 308 no less than 3x times...all failed to find a system that satisfied all parameters for a given budget. Using personal guns (KAC ACC) did not make much of a difference.

The reality of the distance thing is that you should be looking farther than the often quoted "75y average shot" but not getting your head in the clouds thinking you're doing long-range whack-a-mole in Afghanistan.

If you don't believe me, reach out to Doc Spears at Forge Tactical or Alex Hartmann and Rudy Gonsior at Ridgeline and see what they say on the matter.

[TMS951]

I just snagged a 3-18 Trijicon for a great price at Eurooptic. It’s worth taking a look…

https://www.eurooptic.com/Trijicon-R...?homepage_link

Thanks! I’d been looking for a higher magnification scope. This fit the bill at a price I couldn’t pass up! Thanks again!

[okie]

Thanks! I’d been looking for a higher magnification scope. This fit the bill at a price I couldn’t pass up! Thanks again!

I've had several of their Accupoint/Accupower scopes, and the glass is pretty amazing for the price. That said, I've run into QC problems and extremely lackluster CS from them as of late.

That said, the VCOG with the 7.62 reticle would be almost perfect for OP's needs. If he could get the exact ammunition and barrel that the reticle is calibrated for that would be pretty sweet.

[TMS951]

I've had several of their Accupoint/Accupower scopes, and the glass is pretty amazing for the price. That said, I've run into QC problems and extremely lackluster CS from them as of late.

That said, the VCOG with the 7.62 reticle would be almost perfect for OP's needs. If he could get the exact ammunition and barrel that the reticle is calibrated for that would be pretty sweet.

This scope will mostly be a range toy for me. My next most powerful scope is a night force 2.5-10 on my recce. It’s my goto accurized rifle.

I want to try to this on an SPR that’s been collecting dust. I’m not expecting much more than a 1000$ of quality for my 800$ spent. I had an accupower 1-8 I was very disappointed by how dark it was (light gathering). I sold it immediately. However I paid quite a bit more for it.