Page 13 of 16 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 160

Thread: Which would you choose given the parameters.....

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    2,584
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Funny coming from you, everything that spouts from your keyboard is made up nonsense



    Wrong again. The 77gr SMK is not all OTMs. Look at M855A1 and Mk318 which are expressly designed to fragment on impact. The new TMKs which is marketed as a match bullet, are expressly designed to fragment on impact for increased terminal performance as stated Black Hills themselves.

    Making up more bulls*it I see, bonding does NOT decrease accuracy Gold Dots are some of the most accurate bullets on the market.



    Wow, how is it possible to come up with this much bulls**t, I mean its pretty amazing. Bonded LE loads are clearly marketed as being able to perform against barriers, Gold Dot, Hornady SBR were never marketed as hunting bullets first but expressly as barrier bullets. This statement is just so factually wrong, I just can't wrap my head around how someone can be this dense. Look at any of these companies websites you'll see barrier performance being touted all over.



    Maybe its you who doesnt understand basic physics. Explain how the rear core of Mk318 bullet can still exit a 21in block of gel tracking straight through even if its nose completely fragmented. Hint: because it was designed that way. Clearly more bulls**t you are just making up.



    Again making s**t up, you realize the fragments INCREASE the chance of hitting something important not directly in path of the main wound channel while the core of the bullet tracks straight through to penetrate deep into the vitals,because thats how the bullet was designed. Any single gel test video or image will completely disprove your statement.

    If you think a bullet veering off course is a huge issue, have you even heard of 7n6? Go tell that to all the dead Russians and Ukrainians that were shot by 7n6 that it doesnt do the job. Not a fragmenting bullet either.

    No surprise to anyone who studied or dealt with GSWs but ANY bullet can go off course, even intact handguns FMJ or HP can turn 90 degrees after striking bone. Anyone who studies GSW knows this, hell any one with emergency or trauma medical experience would know this when looking for an exit wound, again showing your ignorance of the subject.



    Thats what the penetrating core is for, not the fragments *facepalm*. Seriously its not even funny how ignorant you are about this subject anymore.



    Funny because actual gel tests completely disprove your BS statements. Please go watch some gel tests of any decent performing OTM, you'll see the core of the bullet tracking straight and sailing past the 12" mark.



    Why do you think the 12" FBI minimum exists for ALL bullets regardless if they fragment or not hmm?



    You have yet to reveal who your mysterious "experts" are, I linked the journals of actual experts now show yours. Also wasnt that you who accused others of using the "appeal to authority" tactic?



    Yeah, we do have higher standards than GD, its called backing your statements with evidence which you never have except talk about nebulous "professionals" and "experts" you fail to reveal. Because clearly no one in this thread has backed up any of your claims. Maybe follow your own advice and steer clear of technical forums, we tend not to tolerate bulls**t here.
    OTM stands for "open tip match," which M855A1 is not. One would think that a self-described ballistics expert such as yourself would know that, but okay...

    TMK is also not in that category, and contrary to what you might assume, the tip was added for aerodynamic reasons, and for feeding in magazines. While the tip behaves similarly to a so-called ballistic tip, like the OTMs kind of behave like HPs sometimes, that's not the impetus behind the design.

    Bonded self defense bullets are marketed to do what they were designed to do, which is penetrate flesh and bone. From Speer's own marketing:

    Their exclusive manufacturing process bonds the uniform jacket to the core one atom at a time, ensuring proper expansion and nearly 100 percent weight retention. The result is superb accuracy and immediate, threat-stopping performance.
    They give honorable mention to barrier performance as an afterthought.
    Consistent penetration and expansion through common barriers
    In other words, there's no cavity to get clogged with drywall is what they're saying.

    All that said, the manufacturers can market them however they want, but the fact remains that bonded self defense bullets are merely plain old bonded soft point bullets, no different technologically from the bonded SPs you find in larger calibers for hunting medium to large game. Bonding processes also do very much introduce inconsistency, which is why you don't see match grade bullets using any of those methods. There are claims about new proprietary bonding methods that offer match grade performance, but I don't know whether that's true or not.

    You're correct that any bullet can glance off bone, but what you either fail to appreciate or are unwilling to concede is that the more mass a bullet has, the less chance there is of that happening. Inertia, which is defined as the tendency of an object to remain unchanged (i.e. keep its velocity and trajectory), is directly proportional to its mass. It's also inaccurate to say that bullet cores keep their trajectory. They have more inertia than the smaller fragments so they generally deflect in larger arcs, but you can even see in bare gel that they almost always deflect. And again, whatever you see in gel will be greatly magnified in an actual human body. Gel has no variables, whereas the human body is full of them, meaning any deflection observed in gel is likely to be much more extreme.

    As far as evidence, you've effectively provided none, so get off your high horse. An out of context quote about 100gr OTMs and a data dump doesn't net you any points I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    The core of M855a1 retains enough weight and energy after “fragmenting” to sail clear through a mother****er sideways.
    I'm not sure if that's literally true or not, but even if it is, there's next to zero chance of it traveling all the way through in a straight line. After passing through arms or a shoulder the base fragment would stand a pretty good chance of going very wide of wherever it was originally headed.

    This is pretty typical:



    Again, keep in mind that that's in a homogeneous block of gel, which is a best case scenario in terms of getting it to fly straight. Any tendency to yaw or deflect is going to be greatly increased in a real person because you have the bullet passing through many layers of many types of heterogeneous tissue, all separated by intersecting tissue planes, fibrous sacks, and interspersed with bone and sinew. Wound profiles in people are also generally abbreviated compared to the gel profile, which is usually elongated by comparison. So were that bullet in the photo a representation of a shoulder shot, it's theoretically unlikely that the fragments would have penetrated deeply enough, much less stayed on track.
    Last edited by okie; 09-04-22 at 12:28.

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Az
    Posts
    4,381
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    The dude I shot with the 55 grain Game King, the fragments moved maybe a couple of inches away from the base of the bullet but still were heading in the same general direction. Also the base of the bullet tracked pretty dang straight through the dude. The bullet expanded and fragmented in the forearm, the fragments entered the side of the chest and then made it about halfway across the width of his body while shredding the left lung.

    Also, I have a sneaky suspicion that 1168 knows a thing or two about what M855A1 does in real life.
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
    3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
    2002-2006
    OIF 1 and 3

    IraqGunz:
    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,751
    Feedback Score
    22 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
    The dude I shot with the 55 grain Game King, the fragments moved maybe a couple of inches away from the base of the bullet but still were heading in the same general direction. Also the base of the bullet tracked pretty dang straight through the dude. The bullet expanded and fragmented in the forearm, the fragments entered the side of the chest and then made it about halfway across the width of his body while shredding the left lung.

    Also, I have a sneaky suspicion that 1168 knows a thing or two about what M855A1 does in real life.
    Oh I bet he does

    Im going to say this guy is completely hopeless when he is arguing with people who have actually shot people with these rounds and seen its after effects that what they saw is wrong. I mean this is some real Dunning-Kruger, mental disorder stuff right here. Despite being told he wrong, by pretty much every single person in this thread he has quadruple or even quintuple downed on his completely baseless and idiotic ideas about fragmenting rounds. Some people are just beyond reasoning with, at this point we should probably call the mods in.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 09-04-22 at 16:41.
    Forward Ascertainment Group

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,152
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Knock off the personal attacks and crap posting. If you have actual data and knowledge please contribute it. If not then please don't stir the pot. First and only warning.
    Love you Pop. F*ck Cancer.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,751
    Feedback Score
    22 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoochild View Post
    Knock off the personal attacks and crap posting. If you have actual data and knowledge please contribute it. If not then please don't stir the pot. First and only warning.
    Yep, this thread is done. This guy has repeatedly:
    1. Disregarded pretty much everyone in thread telling him his notions on fragmentation are wrong.
    2. Disregarded the published literature from the IWBA, Fackler and DocGKR showing his notions are wrong while simultaneously saying his experts agree with him.
    3. Fails to produce these said experts who agree with him
    4. Ignores easily accessible material on the manufacture websites
    5. Contradicting the reports from actual combat veterans that the effects they saw personally with the rounds they shot people with are wrong.
    6. Is now just arguing himself into a circle repeating all of the above.

    Ive done my part in tearing apart this guy's arguments piece by piece so Im done.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 09-04-22 at 16:28.
    Forward Ascertainment Group

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Posts
    4,932
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Further: quote an ENTIRE post for the purpose of running your suck regarding 1-3 sentences…..

    Acting without intellectual laziness will only hurt your gooch the first time; after that, it feels kinda nice.
    Contractor scum, PM Infantry Weapons

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    2,584
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
    The dude I shot with the 55 grain Game King, the fragments moved maybe a couple of inches away from the base of the bullet but still were heading in the same general direction. Also the base of the bullet tracked pretty dang straight through the dude. The bullet expanded and fragmented in the forearm, the fragments entered the side of the chest and then made it about halfway across the width of his body while shredding the left lung.

    Also, I have a sneaky suspicion that 1168 knows a thing or two about what M855A1 does in real life.
    If you care to elaborate more I would be interested in hearing the details. Or if you've already told the story and don't want to tell it again and someone could just point me to that thread, that works too.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    11,863
    Feedback Score
    0
    Sorry guys and mods......didn't mean this to be a shit-fest. Some quite knowledgeable folks have chimed in and I greatly appreciate the input.
    11C2P '83-'87
    Airborne Infantry
    F**k China!

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Az
    Posts
    4,381
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by okie View Post
    If you care to elaborate more I would be interested in hearing the details. Or if you've already told the story and don't want to tell it again and someone could just point me to that thread, that works too.
    Post #73
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
    3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
    2002-2006
    OIF 1 and 3

    IraqGunz:
    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    2,584
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
    Post #73
    I was mostly just curious what organization you were with at the time and how you ended up fielding a Game King in combat. Also, what was the barrel length and range?

Page 13 of 16 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •