Which would you choose given the parameters.....

[C-grunt]

I was mostly just curious what organization you were with at the time and how you ended up fielding a Game King in combat. Also, what was the barrel length and range?

Police department, 16 inch Colt 6920, 40 yards.

[Disciple]

I'll be a palooka and weigh in. I think some good points are being lost among overly broad claims and personality clashes.

Unless I am mistaken Bear Claws, Weldcores, A-Frames etc. were developed for terminal performance in flesh and bone, and that the combination of controlled expansion and retained weight was found by hunters perform with consistency on a class of game above basic cup and core bullets in the same caliber. They, along with solids, are preferred on dangerous game where a broadside shot may not be possible. That these bullets were later selected for performance though auto glass should not discount this original purpose. While a fragmenting bullet may perform after passing through a limb as C-grunt personally attests I nevertheless believe that bonded bullets are better suited to that shot with a higher individual probability of success.

[BobinNC]

I'll be a palooka and weigh in. I think some good points are being lost among overly broad claims and personality clashes.

Unless I am mistaken Bear Claws, Weldcores, A-Frames etc. were developed for terminal performance in flesh and bone, and that the combination of controlled expansion and retained weight was found by hunters perform with consistency on a class of game above basic cup and core bullets in the same caliber. They, along with solids, are preferred on dangerous game where a broadside shot may not be possible. That these bullets were later selected for performance though auto glass should not discount this original purpose. While a fragmenting bullet may perform after passing through a limb as C-grunt personally attests I nevertheless believe that bonded bullets are better suited to that shot with a higher individual probability of success.

That's a neat analysis, now where do we (as civilians) buy ammo loaded with Bear Claws, Weldcores, and A-Frames in 5.56mm NATO?? They may be better suited to yield a higher probability of success, but if they aren't available then it's all just vaporware....

[Disciple]

I chose Gold Dot. It's not 5.56 and not quite as tough as those, but it was half the price of XM556SBCT3 and has a smaller meplat that probably helps feeding consistency.

[C-grunt]

Ive said it before, even in this thread, that a bonded/mono bullet is going to give better penetration and better terminal ballistics through barriers. Im just pointing out that fragmenting bullets are not as bad as some people make them out to be. Also I havent seen the "severe" degradation in terminal ballistics as Okie stated.

[C-grunt]

I should clarify that bullets like a 40 grain V-max will very likely give you under penetration. While I know they are and have been used by LE departments I dont think it's the norm. From what Ive seen the TRU Game King and soft point loads are very popular, the TAP 75 grain is pretty popular, and all of the common bonded bullets like the Gold Dot. I cant remember every talking to a cop in person or online that used a V-max type bullet for duty work.

[Waylander]

Yes, bonded was designed to penetrate thick, tough skin and heavy bone of large game. Hunters have begun recognizing that some heavier 5.56 OTM rounds can be effective on deer since there is no thick skin or dense bone to penetrate.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/why-a...mmunition-yet/

A similar case can be made for humans.

DocGKR also makes an important point that using some OTM could be useful in urban entry scenarios. A bonded design could over-penetrate inner walls and strike innocent bystanders. A similar concern can be made for the average homeowner. This isn’t new thinking and it’s far from “gimmicky”.

[okie]

Police department, 16 inch Colt 6920, 40 yards.

Oh okay that makes a lot more sense! I saw your sig line and assumed this happened in Iraq. I was envisioning you and your squad doing a battlefield autopsy on this guy.

I'll be a palooka and weigh in. I think some good points are being lost among overly broad claims and personality clashes.

Unless I am mistaken Bear Claws, Weldcores, A-Frames etc. were developed for terminal performance in flesh and bone, and that the combination of controlled expansion and retained weight was found by hunters perform with consistency on a class of game above basic cup and core bullets in the same caliber. They, along with solids, are preferred on dangerous game where a broadside shot may not be possible. That these bullets were later selected for performance though auto glass should not discount this original purpose. While a fragmenting bullet may perform after passing through a limb as C-grunt personally attests I nevertheless believe that bonded bullets are better suited to that shot with a higher individual probability of success.

I'm assuming that's in reference to me, so I would like to clarify my position a bit if that's how people are interpreting it. My position is that fragmentation is somewhat good some of the time, depending on the context. I would say the broad claims are being made by certain people saying it's all good all the time.

My original comment was in reference to M193, that from our perspective as defensive shooters, it's not really a problem if it fails to fragment. That is, if it fails to fragment it's probably not going to make any difference in whether we win or lose in a defensive shooting scenario, and could in fact even work in our favor if it remains intact.

My position is also that retained weight is a virtue in and of itself, all else being equal. Such as price, barrier penetration, etc. I.e. if a bullet has poor weight retention and doesn't have some other redeeming quality to compensate, then it's illogical to choose it over something with better weight retention. E.g. I think it's illogical to choose something like Game King over something like Gold Dot, but, depending on the circumstances, it could be logical to choose something like M193, Mk262, or M855A1; for price or performance reasons that aren't strictly from a terminal perspective.

My position, as stated several times, is also that virtually everything mentioned in this thread is highly likely to work if shot placement is good (as C-grunt's account attests). I fully recognize that I'm speaking from a perspective of theoretical hair splitting, vs. a perspective of "what should I buy." For the record, I use M855 because it's cheap, reasonably high quality, and it works well enough from my preferred 10.3" Mk18 uppers. Are there better options? Hell yea, there are. Am I going to pay a buck a round for them? Hell no, I'm not. Because, like I've said, it's not likely to alter the basic equation. If shot placement is good, my twenty-five cent M855 is 99.99% just as likely to work every bit as well as anything else I might buy at a buck a round. And if shot placement is not good, there's likewise a 99.99% chance that anything I might buy at four times the cost will fail just as spectacularly.

Ive said it before, even in this thread, that a bonded/mono bullet is going to give better penetration and better terminal ballistics through barriers. Im just pointing out that fragmenting bullets are not as bad as some people make them out to be. Also I havent seen the "severe" degradation in terminal ballistics as Okie stated.

See above. In terms of theoretical hair splitting I like to nerd out as much as the next guy. In terms of where the rubber meets the road, as it were, my views are a lot more pragmatic than what they're being credited for.

Now I do think issuing 55gr Game King was a knuckleheaded choice on the part of whoever at your agency makes those decisions (no offense intended if that person is a friend of yours), but in the spectrum of knuckleheaded decisions made by departments I would say that's a low magnitude one. They certainly could have done worse, and many have.

Yes, bonded was designed to penetrate thick, tough skin and heavy bone of large game. Hunters have begun recognizing that some heavier 5.56 OTM rounds can be effective on deer since there is no thick skin or dense bone to penetrate.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/why-a...mmunition-yet/

A similar case can be made for humans.

DocGKR also makes an important point that using some OTM could be useful in urban entry scenarios. A bonded design could over-penetrate inner walls and strike innocent bystanders. A similar concern can be made for the average homeowner. This isn’t new thinking and it’s far from “gimmicky”.

I never said Mk262 was gimmicky. Rounds I characterized as gimmicky, as I said many times over, were RIP et al, and also, albeit to a lesser extent, TRU et al.

It's counterproductive as a hunting bullet, though. Just because a rock can pound a nail doesn't make it a hammer. If I needed meat and only had Mk262 at my disposal, would I hesitate for one second to shoot a deer with it? Well of course not! But if a bonded SP were available naturally I would use it instead.

As far as Mk262 or any other OTM being "safer" in an urban setting, that's highly unlikely. Drywall and interior doors aren't likely to have any effect on them, other than perhaps to clog the open tip and cause them to act like an FMJ. Even when they do fragment, OTMs still have pretty good weight retention, too. More than half usually. Don't use Mk262 where you wouldn't use FMJ because it's pretty much the same in terms of relative safety to bystanders. Again, though, this entire idea of a bullet that can effectively kill someone trying to kill you, while somehow posing even a reduced threat to someone on the other side of freaking drywall...it's an idiotic concept from the word go. I'm sorry if that's being too blunt, but it's an asinine concept.

[Disciple]

Yes, bonded was designed to penetrate thick, tough skin and heavy bone of large game. Hunters have begun recognizing that some heavier 5.56 OTM rounds can be effective on deer since there is no thick skin or dense bone to penetrate. A similar case can be made for humans.

No doubt they can be devastating with a perfect shot, but we could also make the case for humans being more like dangerous game: shooting back, actively trying not to present a perfect shot, and wearing thick "skin" of various forms. I share Todd.K's expressed opinion on this. I have my doubts that the intact base of a 62 grain bullet (after passing through a limb or obstruction) is optimal, even if it penetrates, else one could carry 5.7 ball and save a lot of weight. I therefore believe that the design of the M855A1 bullet and to a lesser extent 77 grain SMK/TMK come with some trade-off, compared to bonded bullets in pure flesh-and-bone performance from suboptimal angles.

This balance of fragmentation and penetration is difficult with the limitations of 5.56, so bonded designs are usually best. In .308 a partition gives impressive fragmentation and penetration.

You can’t have as much fragmentation in 5.56 while still getting good penetration because there is less bullet to work with.

[C-grunt]

OTM fragment from yawing not because the open tip expands like a hollow point.