.223 wylde

[Ironman8]

ETA- All 223 Wylde barrels are not of the same quality. I would not choose a 6 groove 7 twist barrel if I had a choice of that and other high performance rifling designs.

I’m curious about this statement, why this is the case? Is it the 6 groove or the 7 twist? Or both as a combination?

I’m asking mostly because Criterion uses 6 groove but it’s 8 twist.

[BufordTJustice]

I didn't take it as DwayneZ was trying to decide for himself, if that is the case I should have answered differently.
I little background on me as if my opinions matter LOL. I received my first gunsmith cert in 79, started designing wildcats/chambers in 1982. Worked as an engineer in another field for 25 years. In 2007 I started AR Performance to make higher quality/accurate barrels. 2009 I figured out I could not stand in front of a lathe 8-10 hrs a day and turn out 2 barrels a day. I decided to use what I knew about benchrest and highpower barrels and incorporate those ideas into a production barrel line. Pretty much retired now.
If a friend asked me which widely available chamber he should use in an AR to shoot various kinds of ammo I would say a 223 Wylde every time. If he had a SAW or other lmg I would say the 5.56.
I have a few HK 93s that have 5.56 chambers but other than those I have not owned a firearm that has had a 223 or 5.56 chamber in them since the mid 90s. Again just 1 opinion.

ETA- All 223 Wylde barrels are not of the same quality. I would not choose a 6 groove 7 twist barrel if I had a choice of that and other high performance rifling designs.

I've heard anecdotal reports that 1/7 can increase throat erosion rate in stainless barrel steels.

Is this a) a thing
&/or
b) could this be part of what you are alluding to?


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[DwayneZ]

I've heard anecdotal reports that 1/7 can increase throat erosion rate in stainless barrel steels.

Is this a) a thing
&/or
b) could this be part of what you are alluding to?


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Those questions are specific to Wylde cut?

[BufordTJustice]

Those questions are specific to Wylde cut?

No. Really directed toward 1:7 and any uncoated stainless barrel.


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[constructor]

I’m curious about this statement, why this is the case? Is it the 6 groove or the 7 twist? Or both as a combination?

I’m asking mostly because Criterion uses 6 groove but it’s 8 twist.

Most barrels use an enfield rifling design, just square lands, Others use 5R, 3R or a true polygon like HK, Glock and Lothar. The design alone can make a difference, 5R, 3R or poly can produce faster velocity with less copper fouling.

Some 6 groove barrels have lands the same width as the grooves so those are a 50:50 Land to groove ratio, they will produce a higher engraving force and a higher peak pressure. Those guys that handload for maximum velocity can get more velocity by using rifling designs that are 25:75 L-G ratio and a 5r, 3r or poly. On top of that some cartridges have specific bore area specs and the 6 groove 50:50 barrels will not meet the bore area specs causing higher(over max) peak pressures when shooting ammo like the Mk262.

Barrel companies like 6 groove with a 50:50 because it's easier and faster to pull a button through, saving them money.

As an example, you know how company X comes out with a new cartridge and say they get 2800fps but when ammo companies start loading ammo they can't get as much velocity and everyone says the cartridge was hyped up. Some of that has to do with poor barrel design or manufacturing including reamers that are not to spec. When the AMU came out with the 6.8 and tested it they used Douglas barrels with a 4 groove 25:75 L-G ratio they got apx 2800fps with 115gr bullets out of a 20" barrel. When Remington and others started loading they could not get close. After a lot of testing we found it was due to barrels with bad specs. A company thought to have an "In" with the military produced a bunch of barrels with 6 groove 50:50 L-G ratio, they blew primers all over the place. I only know 2 brands of barrels for sure that meet the SAAMI spec bore area for the 6.8.

[BufordTJustice]

Most barrels use an enfield rifling design, just square lands, Others use 5R, 3R or a true polygon like HK, Glock and Lothar. The design alone can make a difference, 5R, 3R or poly can produce faster velocity with less copper fouling.

Some 6 groove barrels have lands the same width as the grooves so those are a 50:50 Land to groove ratio, they will produce a higher engraving force and a higher peak pressure. Those guys that handload for maximum velocity can get more velocity by using rifling designs that are 25:75 L-G ratio and a 5r, 3r or poly. On top of that some cartridges have specific bore area specs and the 6 groove 50:50 barrels will not meet the bore area specs causing higher(over max) peak pressures when shooting ammo like the Mk262.

Barrel companies like 6 groove with a 50:50 because it's easier and faster to pull a button through, saving them money.

As an example, you know how company X comes out with a new cartridge and say they get 2800fps but when ammo companies start loading ammo they can't get as much velocity and everyone says the cartridge was hyped up. Some of that has to do with poor barrel design or manufacturing including reamers that are not to spec. When the AMU came out with the 6.8 and tested it they used Douglas barrels with a 4 groove 25:75 L-G ratio they got apx 2800fps with 115gr bullets out of a 20" barrel. When Remington and others started loading they could not get close. After a lot of testing we found it was due to barrels with bad specs. A company thought to have an "In" with the military produced a bunch of barrels with 6 groove 50:50 L-G ratio, they blew primers all over the place. I only know 2 brands of barrels for sure that meet the SAAMI spec bore area for the 6.8.

Fascinating.

Thank you, sir.


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[DwayneZ]

Most barrels use an enfield rifling design, just square lands, Others use 5R, 3R or a true polygon like HK, Glock and Lothar. The design alone can make a difference, 5R, 3R or poly can produce faster velocity with less copper fouling.



As an example, you know how company X comes out with a new cartridge and say they get 2800fps but when ammo companies start loading ammo they can't get as much velocity and everyone says the cartridge was hyped up. Some of that has to do with poor barrel design or manufacturing including reamers that are not to spec.

Well, the ammo industry should define a standard by which ammo can be tested to. The std square 6 groove 20" should be one (including the type of finish), and then perhaps something of higher quality (5R or whatever). Until there is a standard that includes those specific details, then we'll just keep getting "hyped" data.

[1168]

Constructor, any thoughts on CIP .223 chambers? My earlier question kinda got lost in the noise, I think.

[constructor]

Constructor, any thoughts on CIP .223 chambers? My earlier question kinda got lost in the noise, I think.

Sorry, I have never tested one.

[constructor]

Well, the ammo industry should define a standard by which ammo can be tested to. The std square 6 groove 20" should be one (including the type of finish), and then perhaps something of higher quality (5R or whatever). Until there is a standard that includes those specific details, then we'll just keep getting "hyped" data.

SAAMI does define a standard and it is in the specs of the cartridge. The people making bad barrels that dont meet the spec are the ones not getting it. It isn't hyped data it is people that don't understand, thinking it is hyped data.

This is the SAAMI 223 specs, there is no SAAMI 5.56. lower right hand corner it says "4 grooves .1767 wide" "minimum bore area .0737 SI". Any company making 6 groove barrels with less than .0737SI bore area is making them out of spec. As I said before very few 6 groove barrels meet the spec in any cartridge and it seems most cartridge specs are based on Douglas 4 groove barrels.

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