Wilson Purchesed Lehigh Defense

[1168]

The Lehigh projectile is “barrier blind”, for sure. Lets define that. Barrier blind can be said to mean a bullet that performs close to the same, whether initially striking bare flesh, or doing so after passing through any of several other thin mediums. So, since its not designed to do anything that a FMJ doesn’t do, there is no opportunity to fail to do that FMJ thing after striking sheetrock or whatever.

So, lets apply that to a shitty JHP. XTP bullets are notorious for failing to expand at moderate velocities. Lets say we launch a sample of 20 of them through bare gel and through clothing-covered gel as a barrier. Or sheetrock and then gel. Doesn’t matter…use your imaginations. I’ll make up some numbers: 900fps impact velocity, 147gr 9mm. 10 recovered bullets fail to expand and penetrate over 24” of gel. 10 expand to .400”-.500” and penetrated 16”-18”. The 10 that did not expand did exactly what the Lehigh bullets do. The other 10 did JHP things. How exactly is the Lehigh performing better when it fails to expand 20 out of 20 times? Wouldn’t a hardcast and coated bullet be cheaper?

[vicious_cb]

The Lehigh projectile is “barrier blind”, for sure. Lets define that. Barrier blind can be said to mean a bullet that performs close to the same, whether initially striking bare flesh, or doing so after passing through any of several other thin mediums. So, since its not designed to do anything that a FMJ doesn’t do, there is no opportunity to fail to do that FMJ thing after striking sheetrock or whatever.

So, lets apply that to a shitty JHP. XTP bullets are notorious for failing to expand at moderate velocities. Lets say we launch a sample of 20 of them through bare gel and through clothing-covered gel as a barrier. Or sheetrock and then gel. Doesn’t matter…use your imaginations. I’ll make up some numbers: 900fps impact velocity, 147gr 9mm. 10 recovered bullets fail to expand and penetrate over 24” of gel. 10 expand to .400”-.500” and penetrated 16”-18”. The 10 that did not expand did exactly what the Lehigh bullets do. The other 10 did JHP things. How exactly is the Lehigh performing better when it fails to expand 20 out of 20 times? Wouldn’t a hardcast and coated bullet be cheaper?

Funny you mention the Hornady XTP bullets, where the only place they really shine is out of a BUG or any other micro barrel pistols precisely because they suck so much at expanding.

[1168]

Funny you mention the Hornady XTP bullets, where the only place they really shine is out of a BUG or any other micro barrel pistols precisely because they suck so much at expanding.

Just like the eXtreme Penetrators lol.

[yoni]

Theres really no magic velocity where "stuff starts to happen". You can achieve 2000 fps easy out of 5.7 handguns and those do pretty poorly in actual shootings. Even out of the P90 you are getting 2200 fps out of the same ammo, still has pretty poor performance in shootings.

If you got some real world data on the Lehigh stuff Id be very interested in seeing it, unfortunately no one is adopting it as a duty round so OIS data is hard to come by.

I was reporting what was told to me, and when you look at the calibers they were shooting in the NYPD stakeout unit, it was 38special, 30 caliber M1 carbine, 1911, you will not see the 5.7 because it wasn't invented yet. I agree the 5.7 is a terrible round, we tried it and it sucked.

But a 9mm round going 2000 to 2300fps, it is going to do things a regular 9mm hollowpoint can't.

[vicious_cb]

I was reporting what was told to me, and when you look at the calibers they were shooting in the NYPD stakeout unit, it was 38special, 30 caliber M1 carbine, 1911, you will not see the 5.7 because it wasn't invented yet. I agree the 5.7 is a terrible round, we tried it and it sucked.

But a 9mm round going 2000 to 2300fps, it is going to do things a regular 9mm hollowpoint can't.

Would you have any qualms carrying this? Since its also going over 1900 fps

[yoni]

Would you have any qualms carrying this? Since its also going over 1900 fps

I would NEVER carry this ammo. Since it is a hollowpoint at those speeds it will over expand and under penetrate.

[WillBrink]

The Lehigh projectile is “barrier blind”, for sure. Lets define that. Barrier blind can be said to mean a bullet that performs close to the same, whether initially striking bare flesh, or doing so after passing through any of several other thin mediums. So, since its not designed to do anything that a FMJ doesn’t do, there is no opportunity to fail to do that FMJ thing after striking sheetrock or whatever.

So, lets apply that to a shitty JHP. XTP bullets are notorious for failing to expand at moderate velocities. Lets say we launch a sample of 20 of them through bare gel and through clothing-covered gel as a barrier. Or sheetrock and then gel. Doesn’t matter…use your imaginations. I’ll make up some numbers: 900fps impact velocity, 147gr 9mm. 10 recovered bullets fail to expand and penetrate over 24” of gel. 10 expand to .400”-.500” and penetrated 16”-18”. The 10 that did not expand did exactly what the Lehigh bullets do. The other 10 did JHP things. How exactly is the Lehigh performing better when it fails to expand 20 out of 20 times? Wouldn’t a hardcast and coated bullet be cheaper?

That's why:



Doing a decent job of following FBI protocols vs Speer GD 124g:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL2z8OS-9xk

Through armor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMuJAWCjtok

[1168]

Will, all the flutes do is take advantage of the inelasticity of ballistic gelatin. Stretch cavities mean jack shit but marketing at pistol speeds. My internets won’t let me watch the video to be sure thats what we’re talking about.

Vicious, I’ve seen a small deer-like animal get shot with that 50gr HP stuff. I can confirm that it expands very fast and probably would not penetrate 12” in jello.

Yoni’s onto something altogether more interesting with a light, fast projectile that won’t break apart.

[WillBrink]

Will, all the flutes do is take advantage of the inelasticity of ballistic gelatin. Stretch cavities mean jack shit but marketing at pistol speeds. My internets won’t let me watch the video to be sure thats what we’re talking about.

Real world results on animals report even better on meat then the effects on jello. Yoni also coms with people using it on pigs, say same. I have no personal experience there so that's second and third hand info. I did post on vid shooting meat here, and subjectively, bigger perm cavity/hole to a JHP used.

Worst case, you get a barrier blind bullet that stops at FBI protocol distances, better terminal ballistics than FMJ, not as good as good JHP, if the JHP performs as intended. That's the trade off some may view worth it, some may not, but I think that's a fair conclusion.

Best case, it's as advertised, a barrier blind solid projectile that also out performs JHP in terminal ballistics even when the JHP performs as intended. For that conclusion, we need formal testing.

Of Interest: Getting the Lehigh up to 2k+ FPS and potentially seeing rifle-like effects in terminal ballistics from a pistol.

[T2C]

Handgun rounds are not good for penetrating barriers, then performing as intended. I would like to see Wilson Combat test the LeHigh Defense cartridge while using denim, jacket leather and canvas duck material.

Eventually, we will see a number of shootings where LeHigh Defense ammunition was used and have the ability to collect real data.