Wilson Purchesed Lehigh Defense

[WillBrink]

Maybe the purchase of Lehigh Defense is old news for some here, but there's been onging interest in those bullets lately. More I see more interested I get as they don't appear to be another super wonder bullet that fails on testing. So far, the Lehigh design continues to look legit. What we really need is some formal testing, but all the informal testing, feedback from people who have shot hogs with them, etc looks like a legit barrier blind monolithic that offers close to best of both worlds of FMJ and JHP without the drawbacks. There 90g Extreme Defend or tested her via Wilson:

[vicious_cb]

Maybe the purchase of Lehigh Defense is old news for some here, but there's been onging interest in those bullets lately. More I see more interested I get as they don't appear to be another super wonder bullet that fails on testing. So far, the Lehigh design continues to look legit. What we really need is some formal testing, but all the informal testing, feedback from people who have shot hogs with them, etc looks like a legit barrier blind monolithic that offers close to best of both worlds of FMJ and JHP without the drawbacks. There 90g Extreme Defend or tested her via Wilson:

I don't particularly care for Lehigh bullets, might have a use in BUGs like .380 or short barrel .38 special guns that don't carry enough energy to both expand and penetrate. But no, these arent a replacement for a good JHP. A good JHP will still crush more tissue than a bullet that doesnt expand. Its doing damage similar to a semi-wadcutter, better than a FMJ, worse than a good JHP. Kind of a niche bullet.

If your pistol and ammo combo is too weak to achieve good expansion and adequate penetration from a JHP, then these would be a good option.

[WillBrink]

I don't particularly care for Lehigh bullets, might have a use in BUGs like .380 or short barrel .38 special guns that don't carry enough energy to both expand and penetrate. But no, these arent a replacement for a good JHP. A good JHP will still crush more tissue than a bullet that doesnt expand. Its doing damage similar to a semi-wadcutter, better than a FMJ, worse than a good JHP. Kind of a niche bullet.

If your pistol and ammo combo is too weak to achieve good expansion and adequate penetration from a JHP, then these would be a good option.

The JHP if it performs as intended may create a greater wounding effect, but that's if it performs. Otherwise, it acts as FMJ. Did you watch the vid? The Lehigh is effectively barrier blind and still performed to FBI protocol depth. I'd like to see some formal testing, but various who who shoot hogs with them have reported considerable wounding, likely due to cavitation effects perhaps. Regardless, the Lehigh may have a reduced crushing mechanism, but will be more consistant under more conditions, and perhaps wounding above an FMJ but less than a JHP if the JHP actually performs as intended.

I would not write the Lehigh off, but we need full formal testing there.

[vicious_cb]

The JHP if it performs as intended may create a greater wounding effect, but that's if it performs. Otherwise, it acts as FMJ. Did you watch the vid? The Lehigh is effectively barrier blind and still performed to FBI protocol depth. I'd like to see some formal testing, but various who who hogs with them have reported considerable wounding, likely due to cavitation effects. Regardless, the Lehigh may have a reduced crushing mechanism, but will me more conistant under more conditions, and perhaps wounding above an FMJ but less than a JHP if the JHP actually performs as intended.

I would not write the Lehigh off, but we need full formal testing there.

Thats why I said a GOOD JHP, the ones that won't plug up or fail to expand. I generally don't rely on temporary stretch cavity in handguns as a wounding mechanism. Also what caliber is this hunter shooting the hogs with? If he is using a lever action calibers you are talking rifle caliber wounding ballistics, not handgun ballistics.

[WillBrink]

Thats why I said a GOOD JHP, the ones that won't plug up or fail to expand. I generally don't rely on temporary stretch cavity in handguns as a wounding mechanism. Also what caliber is this hunter shooting the hogs with? If he is using a lever action calibers you are talking rifle caliber wounding ballistics, not handgun ballistics.

None are essentially barrier blind however and there's always a trade off in their designs and reliability. Not formal testing, but a well respected JHP vs Lehigh and the perm cavities look very similar. Not the pencil thin wound track of say an FMJ which would have gone through both blocks I'd expect:

[WillBrink]

Shooting some actual meat is interesting vs HST JHP with subjective caveats of such things:

[Defaultmp3]

None are essentially barrier blind however and there's always a trade off in their designs and reliability. Not formal testing, but a well respected JHP vs Lehigh and the perm cavities look very similar. Not the pencil thin wound track of say an FMJ which would have gone through both blocks I'd expect:

Pretty sure that clear gel is basically useless except as a gimmick for YouTube testing.

This idea of a solid projectile with flat point and flutes has been around for a long time. We tested a .45 Auto 185 gr +P solid w/flat point and flutes for NSW back in the late 1980's or so.

Despite media and vendor hype to the contrary, these solid fluted bullets just punch a hole in tissue like any FMJ--there is no mystical hydraulic energy, magical pressure spikes, absurdly enlarged wound cavity, etc...

Nonetheless, this design can be a good projectile and offer decent terminal performance.

Some of the other Wilson Combat videos that will hype up the idea of energy dumping and all that certainly also sours me on any belief that they actually know what they're talking about when it comes to terminal ballistics (see their video about flutes vs. no flutes).

[WillBrink]

Pretty sure that clear gel is basically useless except as a gimmick for YouTube testing.

Some of the other Wilson Combat videos that will hype up the idea of energy dumping and all that certainly also sours me on any belief that they actually know what they're talking about when it comes to terminal ballistics (see their video about flutes vs. no flutes).

I don't care if they use the term as it applies to the bullet stopping where it does in the gel, but cringe when applied to wounding mechanisms. Not as bad as "knock down power" at least.

[yoni]

I am a huge fan of the very light 65 or 68 grain Leighi Defense rounds from Underwood.

Out of a 6 inch 9mm we are kissing close to 2000FPS out of the 357 sig it is 2300 fps.

I gave the 9mm to friends that were going hog hunting and after that hunt they all now carry Leighi from
Underwood in their 9mm pistols and PCC.

I had corresponded with the late Jim Cirillo of NYPD stakeout fame. He told me that starting at about 1900fps things started to really change in a big way in bullet performance on people.

You can make your own choices but for me I have made my choice.

[vicious_cb]

I am a huge fan of the very light 65 or 68 grain Leighi Defense rounds from Underwood.

Out of a 6 inch 9mm we are kissing close to 2000FPS out of the 357 sig it is 2300 fps.

I gave the 9mm to friends that were going hog hunting and after that hunt they all now carry Leighi from
Underwood in their 9mm pistols and PCC.

I had corresponded with the late Jim Cirillo of NYPD stakeout fame. He told me that starting at about 1900fps things started to really change in a big way in bullet performance on people.

You can make your own choices but for me I have made my choice.

Theres really no magic velocity where "stuff starts to happen". You can achieve 2000 fps easy out of 5.7 handguns and those do pretty poorly in actual shootings. Even out of the P90 you are getting 2200 fps out of the same ammo, still has pretty poor performance in shootings.

If you got some real world data on the Lehigh stuff Id be very interested in seeing it, unfortunately no one is adopting it as a duty round so OIS data is hard to come by.