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Thread: Carry gun evaluation drills?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I certainly confirmed what I already believed about plated bullets.

    One thing I wanted to learn from my tests:

    - Heavier guns will be slower to draw and settle down than lighter guns

    - Smaller guns are harder to get a good grip during the first step than larger guns

    Which wins out? Well, from my tests, four guns from 27 oz to 40 oz varied from 1.6 sec to 1.9 sec from holstered under concealment, to one A-zone hit at 7 yds.

    Is that .3 seconds significant? It is 20% faster. But with everything else that could slow down a draw it's probably not significant.

    A surprise was Bill Drills. Holstered, concealed, 7 yds, 6 shots, A zone. 2.65 seconds to 3.0. The Cheetah with a .32 barrel was the fastest, duh. But the S&W M&P 2.0 .45 acp full size with Leopold Micro averaged 2.7 sec! I wasn't really "using" the dot at that range. Sometimes I'd see a red streak while firing, but I was really just using the silhouette of the gun, fight recoil, and slap the trigger. I wasn't able to do that when using a larger, higher optic like the Holosun 507C I had (and since removed) on a Beretta 92X RDO Centurion, because the optic obscured the barrel /slide. In the Bill Drills that M92X with irons was slowest at 3.0 sec average, but that was before I tried the method I did with the S&W so I think I can shave some time still off the M92X score.

    Again, does that 2.65 vs 3.0 second spread between the guns for a Bill Drill matter much?

    Where the smaller guns ran into trouble was the 25 yd accuracy test. (no timer, single action) Groups tended to open up an inch or two on average with the small guns. (Beretta Cheetah, Colt King Cobra 3 inch)

    When I did the 25 yard test with timer (From concealment, draw and fire one shot for time) The times were not significantly different! Hits were, though. Lots of misses with the Cheetah no matter .32 or .380. (only hits scored, I just had to slow down) But the Colt was fastest with the hits! How the heck was it faster than the red-dot S&W? 1.8 sec vs 1.7 sec. average. Mind you the S&W had the best 25 yd slow-fire group by a large margin but that didn't translate into a faster one-shot hit at 25 yds for me that day.

    What was a neat thing to learn is that I can do pretty well with any of these guns if I train with them.

    Except the Cheetah doesn't inspire much confidence for getting good hits beyond about 20 yds. Short sight radius, small sights, small grip. But it's certainly the most comfortable to carry.
    My takeaway:
    A really proficient shooter will be a half second faster regardless and the gun doesnt matter... within reason.

    I cc gun must:
    Fit: if you hysically cannot reach controlls, get something else, otherwise its fine. Grip angle, bore axis, etc is all bs

    Reliability: it has to run. Buying fancy parts to improve performance if it at all detracts from reliability is stupid.

    Concealability. You can conceal a decent gun, dress around it. On the oposite side, you have to be able to use it. Between a shield g43 and g17, most people can make work.

    Pick something and get to A-class, maybe even master (ipsc/uspsa) before looking at gear past the above.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 01-23-23 at 20:07.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    My takeaway:
    A really proficient shooter will be a half second faster regardless and the gun doesnt matter... within reason.

    I cc gun must:
    Fit: if you hysically cannot reach controls, get something else, otherwise its fine. Grip angle, bore axis, etc is all bs

    Reliability: it has to run. Buying fancy parts to improve performance if it at all detracts from reliability is stupid.

    Concealability. You can conceal a decent gun, dress around it. On the opposite side, you have to be able to use it. Between a shield g43 and g17, most people can make work.

    Pick something and get to A-class, maybe even master (ipsc/uspsa) before looking at gear past the above.
    Well, I could probably shave .25s off by starting "more ready" but that feels like "gaming" the drill.

    By that I mean I see some videos of guys perfectly bladed, arms up slightly, knees bent, shoulders a little forward, fingers apart, etc. before the beep.

    I stand like I'm in my back yard pondering how long the fence will last. Arms and hands relaxed, hanging to sides, upright posture. Condition White instead of Orange.

    I'd probably get another .25s by using the same gun / gun style all of the time rather than shooting pocket auto's, snub revolvers, larger revolvers, DA/ SA guns, striker guns, VZ61's, etc.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    Well, I could probably shave .25s off by starting "more ready" but that feels like "gaming" the drill.

    By that I mean I see some videos of guys perfectly bladed, arms up slightly, knees bent, shoulders a little forward, fingers apart, etc. before the beep.

    I stand like I'm in my back yard pondering how long the fence will last. Arms and hands relaxed, hanging to sides, upright posture. Condition White instead of Orange.

    I'd probably get another .25s by using the same gun / gun style all of the time rather than shooting pocket auto's, snub revolvers, larger revolvers, DA/ SA guns, striker guns, VZ61's, etc.
    Fair point, and theres a lot of other factors that go into a situation as well. Maybe your not the type, but I see people changing guns all the time looking the the "right one", but they dont train and suck.

    Again, not saying thats you, as your times indicate otherwise.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Fair point, and theres a lot of other factors that go into a situation as well. Maybe your not the type, but I see people changing guns all the time looking the the "right one", but they dont train and suck.

    Again, not saying thats you, as your times indicate otherwise.
    I am looking for the "perfect 3".

    Pocket gun, full size and compact.

    Something I forgot to mention. My A-zone targets are white paper cut to 6 in W by 11 in H for the 7 yd shooting. For the 25 yd shooting I use 8 in round steel plates.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I certainly confirmed what I already believed about plated bullets.

    One thing I wanted to learn from my tests:

    - Heavier guns will be slower to draw and settle down than lighter guns

    - Smaller guns are harder to get a good grip during the first step than larger guns

    Which wins out? Well, from my tests, four guns from 27 oz to 40 oz varied from 1.6 sec to 1.9 sec from holstered under concealment, to one A-zone hit at 7 yds.

    Is that .3 seconds significant? It is 20% faster. But with everything else that could slow down a draw it's probably not significant.

    A surprise was Bill Drills. Holstered, concealed, 7 yds, 6 shots, A zone. 2.65 seconds to 3.0. The Cheetah with a .32 barrel was the fastest, duh. But the S&W M&P 2.0 .45 acp full size with Leopold Micro averaged 2.7 sec! I wasn't really "using" the dot at that range. Sometimes I'd see a red streak while firing, but I was really just using the silhouette of the gun, fight recoil, and slap the trigger. I wasn't able to do that when using a larger, higher optic like the Holosun 507C I had (and since removed) on a Beretta 92X RDO Centurion, because the optic obscured the barrel /slide. In the Bill Drills that M92X with irons was slowest at 3.0 sec average, but that was before I tried the method I did with the S&W so I think I can shave some time still off the M92X score.

    Again, does that 2.65 vs 3.0 second spread between the guns for a Bill Drill matter much?

    Where the smaller guns ran into trouble was the 25 yd accuracy test. (no timer, single action) Groups tended to open up an inch or two on average with the small guns. (Beretta Cheetah, Colt King Cobra 3 inch)

    When I did the 25 yard test with timer (From concealment, draw and fire one shot for time) The times were not significantly different! Hits were, though. Lots of misses with the Cheetah no matter .32 or .380. (only hits scored, I just had to slow down) But the Colt was fastest with the hits! How the heck was it faster than the red-dot S&W? 1.8 sec vs 1.7 sec. average. Mind you the S&W had the best 25 yd slow-fire group by a large margin but that didn't translate into a faster one-shot hit at 25 yds for me that day.

    What was a neat thing to learn is that I can do pretty well with any of these guns if I train with them.

    Except the Cheetah doesn't inspire much confidence for getting good hits beyond about 20 yds. Short sight radius, small sights, small grip. But it's certainly the most comfortable to carry.
    Those are some interesting times. At your fastest draw (which is fairly slow for your split times) 1.6 seconds, and your total time of 2.65 seconds, your splits are all .21, which is right around where the pros shoot. And to keep it all A Zone means you are a well practiced Bill Drill shooter. But your draw time, with six A Zone hits in 1.05 seconds, is supremely slow comparatively. Increase that to a 1.9 draw with a 3 second total and again you are just lighting fast on the trigger but slow as mollasses on the draw, which makes zero sense for someone who is shooting clean A zone .2 splits.

    Either your numbers are way off, or your performance is severely lacking in the most important part of the Bill Drill, the first round hit.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowSpeed_HighDrag View Post
    Those are some interesting times. At your fastest draw (which is fairly slow for your split times) 1.6 seconds, and your total time of 2.65 seconds, your splits are all .21, which is right around where the pros shoot. And to keep it all A Zone means you are a well practiced Bill Drill shooter. But your draw time, with six A Zone hits in 1.05 seconds, is supremely slow comparatively. Increase that to a 1.9 draw with a 3 second total and again you are just lighting fast on the trigger but slow as mollasses on the draw, which makes zero sense for someone who is shooting clean A zone .2 splits.

    Either your numbers are way off, or your performance is severely lacking in the most important part of the Bill Drill, the first round hit.
    I appreciate the feedback.

    Did you see this?

    "Drawing from concealment and firing one shot into the A-zone at 7 yds VS 25 yds. Average time:

    M&p .45 w/microRDS: 1.9 and 2.72

    M92X Centurion: 1.8 and 2.5

    Colt KC 3 in.: 1.7 and 3.0

    Cheetah .380: 1.78 and 2.95

    Cheetah .32: I didn't take full notes because it's the same gun firing a single shot so there wasn't going to be a real difference."

    There is my typical times from "B" (the B part of "Beep" of course) to a 6x11 in hit at 7 yds from concealment, (8 in round plate at 25 yds) hands to side, totally relaxed. (Not looking like an eagle-eyed guy who's just about to draw and shoot).

    I do have a fast trigger finger (I had an issue where I'd "outrun" or more accurately, fail to let triggers reset. But I've fixed that) and seem to have good control of the gun while firing.

    But yea, my draw needs some work it seems.
    Last edited by Ron3; 01-24-23 at 17:40.

  7. #27
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    I'm going to run another gun through some drills.

    An AP5-P with a rear-mounted single-point sling & optic.

    Starting from slung on my chest with both hands on it, Condition One, full magazine for weight.

    Any of you ever ran a similar gun through pistol drills?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I'm going to run another gun through some drills.

    An AP5-P with a rear-mounted single-point sling & optic.

    Starting from slung on my chest with both hands on it, Condition One, full magazine for weight.

    Any of you ever ran a similar gun through pistol drills?
    Alright I had some fun and did these drills with the AP5-P.

    As an aside, I worked with drawing from concealment to A zone hit at 7 yds using the M&P 2.0 .45. "gaming" it by having the right stance, hands just above my waist, etc., I got it down to 1.6's. Hit 1.54 seconds twice but couldn't consistently and never got faster than that.

    Anyway, here's how it went with the AP5-P with a sling (attached to rear swivel and strapped around my neck and one arm), Holosun HS503CU, and Fiocchi 147 gr FMJ. (I only used one ammunition for these particular tests)

    I started all tests with the gun slung, condition one, two hands on it, ready to go. I used a "C" grip with my support hand, extending it out it's full length. Seemed to make sense as a repeatable move. For timing I use my Blue shot timer. I forget the brand name.

    Accuracy: (Freehand of course) 5-shot groups 25 yds of 1.97", 2.35", and 2.15". Excellent!

    Time to one shot in A zone 7 yds: Avg 1.13s. Best was .94s.

    Time to one shot in A zone 25 yds: Avg. 1.31s. Best was 1.15s.

    Bill Drill: Avg. 2.14s. Best was 1.97s. I think there is room to improve here, too.

    It's obvious this AP5P with no brace or stock still smokes me with my pistols. I think it deserves a short muffler.

  9. #29
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    FAST drill, Half and Half drill, and get in with a local group who shoots IDPA/Outlaw or some other type comp shooting. When there’s timers and scores you tend to really focus on the meat and potatoes of shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I'd like to do a series of drills, same day, to evaluate performance of myself & several pistols.

    Something I can put down some numbers. I have a timer of course. Each has already proven reliable so that is not in question. I want numbers for time and accuracy.

    I was thinking of this:

    1. 6 rds 25 yds no time limit. Using the most accurate ammo I have or 3 types or brands of ammo. For precision and point of impact. X3.

    2. Bill Drill drawn from concealed holster. Time & accuracy test. X3.

    3. Draw & fire one shot from 7, 15, and 25 yds. For time & accuracy. Will use most accurate ammo in each gun from previous 25 yd test. X6.

    Fire 10 rds from each gun before it is tested just to get used to it. I have hundreds of rounds (actually 1k plus) through each gun already.

    Any other ideas or additional drills I should do?

    The goal is partly to separate what I like to what actually performs best with me. And knowledge and fun. I suspect there won't be much difference except for the small guns not doing as well at 25 yds.

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