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Thread: Carry gun evaluation drills?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat View Post
    Many years ago, I did something loosely similar. Time based drills with transitions between multiple targets.
    I found out that I shoot a P226 better than the Beretta 92 FS, an M&P 9 (stock trigger), Glock17 (stock trigger), or a Browning High Power (magazine disconnector removed). A CZ-75 came in a very close second. These were not all tested at once, so each session I had a Ruger GP-100 that I used as a comparison 'standard' since the set-ups varied some during the testing.

    Runs with misses were not accepted.
    Guns were swapped after each run to avoid familiarity biasing the times.


    I think that depends on the gun and the plated bullets. Not sure I would be using Freedom Munitions for accuracy testing.
    I certainly would expect jacketed bullets to do better than plated but it again depends on who made the bullets.
    I certainly confirmed what I already believed about plated bullets.

    One thing I wanted to learn from my tests:

    - Heavier guns will be slower to draw and settle down than lighter guns

    - Smaller guns are harder to get a good grip during the first step than larger guns

    Which wins out? Well, from my tests, four guns from 27 oz to 40 oz varied from 1.6 sec to 1.9 sec from holstered under concealment, to one A-zone hit at 7 yds.

    Is that .3 seconds significant? It is 20% faster. But with everything else that could slow down a draw it's probably not significant.

    A surprise was Bill Drills. Holstered, concealed, 7 yds, 6 shots, A zone. 2.65 seconds to 3.0. The Cheetah with a .32 barrel was the fastest, duh. But the S&W M&P 2.0 .45 acp full size with Leopold Micro averaged 2.7 sec! I wasn't really "using" the dot at that range. Sometimes I'd see a red streak while firing, but I was really just using the silhouette of the gun, fight recoil, and slap the trigger. I wasn't able to do that when using a larger, higher optic like the Holosun 507C I had (and since removed) on a Beretta 92X RDO Centurion, because the optic obscured the barrel /slide. In the Bill Drills that M92X with irons was slowest at 3.0 sec average, but that was before I tried the method I did with the S&W so I think I can shave some time still off the M92X score.

    Again, does that 2.65 vs 3.0 second spread between the guns for a Bill Drill matter much?

    Where the smaller guns ran into trouble was the 25 yd accuracy test. (no timer, single action) Groups tended to open up an inch or two on average with the small guns. (Beretta Cheetah, Colt King Cobra 3 inch)

    When I did the 25 yard test with timer (From concealment, draw and fire one shot for time) The times were not significantly different! Hits were, though. Lots of misses with the Cheetah no matter .32 or .380. (only hits scored, I just had to slow down) But the Colt was fastest with the hits! How the heck was it faster than the red-dot S&W? 1.8 sec vs 1.7 sec. average. Mind you the S&W had the best 25 yd slow-fire group by a large margin but that didn't translate into a faster one-shot hit at 25 yds for me that day.

    What was a neat thing to learn is that I can do pretty well with any of these guns if I train with them.

    Except the Cheetah doesn't inspire much confidence for getting good hits beyond about 20 yds. Short sight radius, small sights, small grip. But it's certainly the most comfortable to carry.
    Last edited by Ron3; 12-06-22 at 21:20.

  2. #12
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    My take-aways were that finding a natural pointing gun contributed to better speed and accuracy combined.
    Good, visible sights helped; though all the guns I used had reasonable sights. (slide mounted red dots were not considered serious kit at the time, they are better now) The RMRs depend on a repeatable index which is not conducive to switching from one gun to another but it offers some advantages.

    A good trigger helped too. The High Power is superbly accurate and the 92FS also shot very well but the P226 provided accuracy similar to the 92F -and- had a better trigger.

    The revolver served as a good baseline. The grip didn't match any of the pistols being tested and, being double action for all rounds, if the pistol couldn't do the job faster than the revolver, it wasn't going to make the cut.

  3. #13
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    I need to check my numbers against what I typed last night because my draw and one good hit times at 7 yds are very close to the times at 25 yds.

    I'll check those again tonight to confirm or clarify.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat View Post
    My take-aways were that finding a natural pointing gun contributed to better speed and accuracy combined.
    Good, visible sights helped; though all the guns I used had reasonable sights. (slide mounted red dots were not considered serious kit at the time, they are better now) The RMRs depend on a repeatable index which is not conducive to switching from one gun to another but it offers some advantages.

    A good trigger helped too. The High Power is superbly accurate and the 92FS also shot very well but the P226 provided accuracy similar to the 92F -and- had a better trigger.

    The revolver served as a good baseline. The grip didn't match any of the pistols being tested and, being double action for all rounds, if the pistol couldn't do the job faster than the revolver, it wasn't going to make the cut.
    Yes that all makes sense.

    I'm wondering if, when using the revolver and other DA triggers, I was putting my finger on the trigger and possibly starting the pull before the gun was on target but not doing so with the striker-fired gun. Might explain why the striker gun wasn't always the fastest.

    This is where having video would be nice.

  5. #15
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    For my purposes, I like to incorporate an El Prez. I also run it as a multiple badguy drill while moving. For a carry gun vetting for me, I run it weak hand and strong hand and practice reloads. I also believe in shooting multiple rounds on the move. I check splits and hits. This is all done after vetting the gun for reliability and accuracy with my carry load.

    Cheers, Steve

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaijin View Post
    While I totally agree 25 yd. hits at speed are desirable, that’s likely statistically irrelevant.
    heh... tell that to Jack Wilson.
    "It is only the warrior who chooses pacifism. All others are condemned to it."

    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
    Dangerous Freedom over Peaceful Slavery.

  7. #17
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    Honestly, I just do this...

    6/6/6 drill
    El Prez.

    I do them all from concealment on a pact timer. Only very rarely do I find an "inaccurate" handgun. Usually it is just what gun is faster on the timer.
    Reminder, we don't need to ruin every thread with social/political commentary and thread drift. Sometimes, it's okay to just talk about the topic.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dumb Gun Collector View Post
    Honestly, I just do this...

    6/6/6 drill
    El Prez.

    I do them all from concealment on a pact timer. Only very rarely do I find an "inaccurate" handgun. Usually it is just what gun is faster on the timer.
    This one?

    https://pistol-training.com/shooting-drills/triple-six/

    Never done this selection. But I like it! Will try it out.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entryteam View Post
    heh... tell that to Jack Wilson.
    Statistically irrelevant (highly improbable)? Yes.

    A skill set to have in your “bag of tricks”? Invaluable.

    Best to own and not need it, than not have it and need it.
    A true "Gun Guy" (or gal) should have familiarity and a modicum of proficiency with most all firearms platforms.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    I need to check my numbers against what I typed last night because my draw and one good hit times at 7 yds are very close to the times at 25 yds.

    I'll check those again tonight to confirm or clarify.
    A little follow-up.

    Drawing from concealment and firing one shot into the A-zone at 7 yds VS 25 yds. Average time:

    M&p .45 w/microRDS: 1.9 and 2.72

    M92X Centurion: 1.8 and 2.5

    Colt KC 3 in.: 1.7 and 3.0

    Cheetah .380: 1.78 and 2.95

    Cheetah .32: I didn't take full notes because it's the same gun firing a single shot so there wasn't going to be a real difference.

    My takeaways from this are:

    A big gun has a nice big grip & that makes it easier to get a fast, consistent grip. A small grip / gun has the opposite effect. DUH!

    Heavier guns draw more slowly than light guns. Again, Duh!

    Put the two together and time it. It may be a wash or it may not. The lighter King Cobra with it's excellent grip gives me the faster time to a hit out of these guns. But really, the big .45 was only 12% slower.

    The .45 S&W with micro optic time from concealment draw to an A-zone hit was .22s slower than the iron-sight Beretta M92x with its DA trigger at 25 yds.

    S&W. 45 Bill Drill vs Beretta .32 2.7s Vs 2.65s. The same!

    I have noticed over many draws to first shot / hit that a DA first shot adds at least .25s vs a striker-type trigger.

    I used to have the common belief that lighter recoil equals faster follow-up shots. I don't think this is entirely accurate.

    There is a point at which recoil will slow down a Bill Drill but i found it insignificant between a Beretta 92, Beretta Cheetah. 32, & an M&P .45.

    I also no longer think a RDS is slower at very close range. (Under 7 yds) It reminds me of what I learned about Big Dot sights that I used to use.

    Inside of 7 yds, the sights don't really matter. Past 15 yds, they really matter and the further back you go the more important having a precise sight is. (Which Big Dots stink at) (Point RDS)

    Something else that became obvious was I was able to shoot in some low-light conditions while doing these tests.

    Bright front sights become tough to see. The Beretta 92x and Cheetah black rear sights dissapeared. The S&W microdot? Obviously was the winner in low-light!
    Last edited by Ron3; 01-23-23 at 15:38.

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