Abrams X MBT

[WillBrink]

I don't care if MBT's are look more and more outdated for modern wars, we need those!

[Coal Dragger]

I don’t think MBT’s are outdated.

I think the Russians just don’t know how to do combined arms worth a shit. If you can’t support your armor with dismounted infantry to keep enemy ATGM’s suppressed, and then drive your tanks right down the middle of a road where it’s easy to predict your location… you are gonna get some turrets popped off.

[Averageman]

I dunno, I was on tanks like 35 years. All of that looks like an answer for a question nobody asked.
I'm pretty highly critical at this point.

[Slater]

For the cost of one B-21 ($700 million) they could upgrade a lot of Abrams.

[Averageman]

For the cost of one B-21 ($700 million) they could upgrade a lot of Abrams.

Well, they don't seem to use the money very well.
For instance, the CROWS system to fire the M2 was always faulty, costly and was a major weakness. So much so one US Division Commander asked that he be allowed to go back to the old M2 mount. How did the Army react to that? They put Crows on nearly all of their STRYKERS.
When you're moving forward in a tank you really want to do a lot of recon by fire, that makes sense. So why reduce the number of rounds available to do so by monkeying around further with a failed system?

[WillBrink]

I dunno, I was on tanks like 35 years. All of that looks like an answer for a question nobody asked.
I'm pretty highly critical at this point.

We are 'Murica, we need the most complex expensive gear.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

MBT have supposedly been obsolete since what, the ‘67 war?

[Averageman]

MBT have supposedly been obsolete since what, the ‘67 war?

I dunno man, I can assure you that 25 years after '67 I was commanding a tank in a war. People have been saying the tank was obsolete since the suitcase sagger, it's simply not true.
When operated by experianced crewmen under a Combined Arms attack, with fire and manuver, they're pretty darned effective. You're moving with covering fire from Artillery and Infantry that are moving with you, it's very workable system.

The problem is that Commanders have no idea how to use tanks.

Tankers are the Firemen of the battlefield, you don't lead with firemen, you use your Infantry and find or create a gap or a flank, exploit it and we will be there with you, just call.
Counterattack coming up against you? No really, just give us a call. We will stop that stuff and plug the gap like a cork plugs a bottle.
Got some random Infantry harrassing your hospital ? (I actually enjoyed this one) Give us a call, we will come light them up.

But what you never want to hear as a Tanker is;
"We push the Tanks forward then we will be right behind you." Because, no really, in all actuality you won't be there.
You might have great intentions but you're not fast enough and everyone loves to shoot at a tank so things will be very busy for us.
So while we will be kinda busy up here shooting at folks and getting shot all while you cross the LD late. The situation keeps evolving so you wont have an idea when you get here whats going on.
And when you finally get up here along side us, you're late to the party and I really am kind of too busy to explain it all to you.
And that folks is how you lose tanks uneccasarily.

It doesn't need to be complex, it just need a good cannon, great fire control and lots of machine guns.

[WillBrink]

I don’t think MBT’s are outdated.

I think the Russians just don’t know how to do combined arms worth a shit. If you can’t support your armor with dismounted infantry to keep enemy ATGM’s suppressed, and then drive your tanks right down the middle of a road where it’s easy to predict your location… you are gonna get some turrets popped off.

The demise of the MBT has been a topic well before Ukraine. Can't use the Russians as a reason/example of MBTs are outdated.

[Coal Dragger]

A good friend of mine works for General Dynamics teaching the latest greatest CROWS.

He claims it is a significant improvement over the older ones he used when he was in 1st Tank Battalion before retiring.