Waco: American Apocalypse

[TexHill]

HRT did the lights and noise and drove the tanks over the Davidians cars in the compound, specifically targeting Koresh’s antique car, all on their own just after the negotiators got a group of people out. Then one of the main (maybe the main) negotiator was removed from the scene because it was more important for him to go to training than stay on scene. No one else ever came out after he was sent packing, until the fire of course. I don’t think he was the only one on the negotiator team sent away either.

The evidence requested by congress that would supposedly show the ATF fired first all apparently disappeared. One of the main pieces was the doors. Hell, even all the close up pictures of the doors vanished from inventory along with the videos the ATF was taking of the activities at the front doors as the initial shots were fired. There were also several pages ripped out of the activity logs the ATF was keeping. I believe the initial news crew even hid their videotapes for fear they would be confiscated. One of these tapes shows someone in a helicopter shooting at least one person who was cleaning the inside of a chimney or tower as the incident started. The Davidian atty made a couple good points in his testimony. One was the Davidians knew the feds were coming and they could have lit them up while they were crammed inside the cattle cars but didn’t. The other was the ATF retreated across the open supposedly out of or nearly out of ammunition without being shot at.

There was also the husband of one of the people inside the building that was shot while attempting to get onto the compound from a back field to supposedly get to his family. That one is known to have happened. His wife even made a statement about in in one of the video messages. Others were supposedly shot as they were fleeing, but I’m not sure if that is true. Of course the FBI said they never shot anyone the entire time they were there. Kinda like the FBI agents said they never shot at Lavoy Finicum.

They even went so far as to confiscate the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's video tape from his investigator who was on site. McClellan County didn't have an M.E. at the time, so the Tarrant County M.E. was tasked was doing the autopsies.

[john armond]

I learned some new shit that pissed me off. I trust a couple people who I used to extend some "benefit of the doubt" a lot less now.

I'm honestly amazed anyone got out of the building alive on that last day.

But hey Chucky Schumer defended the ATF and FBI so everything has to be on the up and up.

[JediGuy]

I’m not sure anyone realized at the time how much this would impact the normal person on the Christian Right. A lot of average people who might have been very middle of the road, OK with Rooseveltism Republicans or Democrats started thinking “They put us in jail when we started our own schools. Now they burn these women and children alive. They weren’t just like us, but what says we won’t be next?”

[jsbhike]

I’m not sure anyone realized at the time how much this would impact the normal person on the Christian Right. A lot of average people who might have been very middle of the road, OK with Rooseveltism Republicans or Democrats started thinking “They put us in jail when we started our own schools. Now they burn these women and children alive. They weren’t just like us, but what says we won’t be next?”

Some of that while others(for lack of a better way to put it) were happy a competitor got knocked off.

[WillBrink]

I learned some new shit that pissed me off. I trust a couple people who I used to extend some "benefit of the doubt" a lot less now.

I'm honestly amazed anyone got out of the building alive on that last day.

I did too, but from both sides of the event. I had heard many times there was debate with the negotiators vs the HRT, hearing it in their own words confirming how bad it was, really pissed me off. The HRT made sure no one in that building was going to come out right after the negotiators had Koresh release 7 people. At the very least, I bet they could have gotten all the kids out at least given more time.

I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.

Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.

The event was something the gubment was not prepared to deal with and they did just about everything wrong, from the first contact, to the last, and the only good guys seemed to be that negotiating team. I don't necessary hold the behavior of the HRT against them per se as when you're them, direct action and getting to do what the spend all day training for. However, they should not have had that level of autonomy and he agent in charge should have come down on them hard to cut that BS out and he failed big time and controlling the situation, likely due to that other POS, Reno.

Finally, after that cluster, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode and just made it all look even worse to those watching. I wonder if they actually learned anything?

[jsbhike]

But hey Chucky Schumer defended the ATF and FBI so everything has to be on the up and up.

Some things to keep in mind are how people at the time were labeled as kooks for claiming there was a movement underway to normalize child molestation and the progress that movement has made along with how many people running the show at the time are still running it today.

[jsbhike]

I did too, but from both sides of the event. I had heard many times there was debate with the negotiators vs the HRT, hearing it in their own words confirming how bad it was, really pissed me off. The HRT made sure no one in that building was going to come out right after the negotiators had Koresh release 7 people. At the very least, I bet they could have gotten all the kids out at least given more time.

I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.

Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.

The event was something the gubment was not prepared to deal with and they did just about everything wrong, from the first contact, to the last, and the only good guys seemed to be that negotiating team. I don't necessary hold the behavior of the HRT against them per se as when you're them, direct action and getting to do what the spend all day training for. However, they should not have had that level of autonomy and he agent in charge should have come down on them hard to cut that BS out and he failed big time and controlling the situation, likely due to that other POS, Reno.

Finally, after that cluster, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode and just made it all look even worse to those watching. I wonder if they actually learned anything?

Koresh may well have been a pos, but unless you git to know him while alive you are basing your opinion on information that has at least some chance of being tainted by the group that "went full a$$ covering mode" if not outright fabricating the info.

The lesson that seems to have been learned(with the frame and receiver business being a recent example) is they can do anything they want.

[WillBrink]

Koresh may well have been a pos, but unless you git to know him while alive you are basing your opinion on information that has at least some chance of being tainted by the group that "went full a$$ covering mode" if not outright fabricating the info.

The lesson that seems to have been learned(with the frame and receiver business being a recent example) is they can do anything they want.

Taking much, if not most, directly from what I saw and heard from his own mouth, as well as the members who spoke about him and or the event itself.

[Averageman]

Koresh may well have been a pos, but unless you git to know him while alive you are basing your opinion on information that has at least some chance of being tainted by the group that "went full a$$ covering mode" if not outright fabricating the info.

The lesson that seems to have been learned(with the frame and receiver business being a recent example) is they can do anything they want.

Taking much, if not most, directly from what I saw and heard from his own mouth, as well as the members who spoke about him and or the event itself.

And somewhere between those two extreams lies the truth.
I wonder at what point did they wonder... "Well, this went off the rails, looks like we need to kill all of them now," or "This will look like a sh*t show in Court, how do we get out of this?"
They certainly didn't want Koresh to live long enough for this to see the inside of a Court Room.

[john armond]

I did too, but from both sides of the event. I had heard many times there was debate with the negotiators vs the HRT, hearing it in their own words confirming how bad it was, really pissed me off. The HRT made sure no one in that building was going to come out right after the negotiators had Koresh release 7 people. At the very least, I bet they could have gotten all the kids out at least given more time.

I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.

Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.

The event was something the gubment was not prepared to deal with and they did just about everything wrong, from the first contact, to the last, and the only good guys seemed to be that negotiating team. I don't necessary hold the behavior of the HRT against them per se as when you're them, direct action and getting to do what the spend all day training for. However, they should not have had that level of autonomy and he agent in charge should have come down on them hard to cut that BS out and he failed big time and controlling the situation, likely due to that other POS, Reno.

Finally, after that cluster, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode and just made it all look even worse to those watching. I wonder if they actually learned anything?

Koresh may have been crazy or a POS and some of his followers have said damming things, he said some crazy things, but some loved him and still do. The FBI sent video cameras in for them to make interviews and home movies. That is where all the footage from inside the compound came from during the siege…the FBI asked them to film themselves. Then after the FBI saw the footage they decided not to release it to the public at the time because they thought it would garner sympathy for the Davidians.

As far as everyone burning to death, the ATF was the forensic examiner for the scene so no conflict of interest there, right. They said the Davidians started the fire, and they may have. Their main determination was there were three fires started at the same time. Years later three .gov flashbangs were found in evidence. They were labeled “silencers” on the evidence sheet. They were recovered at the points of origin of the three fires. The flashbangs could/would have infighted the gas they had been pumping into the building for hours…after punching numerous holes into the building…on the windiest day of the year…while not allowing fire trucks to access the area.

Then there is the FLIR video of the muzzle flashes from .gov guns firing into the only exit once the fire started and people on the inside retreating back into the building. The coroner stated most of the people at the rear exit had been shot and the FBI said they never fired any shots at all so the Davidians must have all shot themselves piled up at the exit instead of leaving.

The local sheriff said the whole incident could have been solved before it started it they simply had him ask Koresh to meet with him prior to the raid. I believe he also went to the compound and inspected the guns before the ATF raid and said they were legal.

Koresh may have been a POS but give him his day in court. They never allowed that. Once the initial ATF ****up happened everything else that happened was to cover the .gov. They didn’t want to give him his chance to defend himself.