Waco: American Apocalypse

[chuckman]

Personally, the ultimate responsibility falls on Koresh, and the government response was over the top and totally avoidable. They wanted to a photo op that turned into a cluster F. They then made it worse with hoisting victory flags, etc. People have every right to be upset on various levels, but I think some lost fact of the sociopath pedophile running the cult who'd convinced all those people he was their God/speaking for God.

Simply wait for him to leave the compound, arrest him. Then have a plan to talk with those in the compound about it etc.

Boom. Done.

The government's response of killing the proverbial fly with a sledgehammer was completely, totally, unequivocally unjustified and shameful.

[WillBrink]

Boom. Done.

The government's response of killing the proverbial fly with a sledgehammer was completely, totally, unequivocally unjustified and shameful.

Agreed, but that does not absolve Koresh, and I have found many simply ignore that part of the events. The response by the government, per usual, was totally out of proportion to the threat, and they don't like it when they show up all tacticool and it turns into battle vs cool take down vid.

Regardless, Koresh was a POS and I personally will not overlook/ignore that aspect regardless of the gubment response to it. Reno should have been fired, just as HC should have been for Benghazi, and on it goes.

[mack7.62]

Anyone else remember the ring airfoil pistol bullets? Made to penetrate body armor, when the Army tested a .45 ACP on a goat wearing a kevlar helmet it penetrated both sides of the helmet and the goat. Supposedly the ATF was using these bullets and some of the dead agents had the distinctive cookie cutter wounds that were a characteristic of this round. Which is likely the reason their autopsies are classified, a total clown show.

[WillBrink]

Anyone else remember the ring airfoil pistol bullets? Made to penetrate body armor, when the Army tested a .45 ACP on a goat wearing a kevlar helmet it penetrated both sides of the helmet and the goat. Supposedly the ATF was using these bullets and some of the dead agents had the distinctive cookie cutter wounds that were a characteristic of this round. Which is likely the reason their autopsies are classified, a total clown show.

Don't recall that, but meaning agents were killed by friendly fire? You can see the vid where the agents literally shot while attempting to enter the building and bullets coming up through the roof and such.

[chuckman]

Agreed, but that does not absolve Koresh, and I have found many simply ignore that part of the events. The response by the government, per usual, was totally out of proportion to the threat, and they don't like it when they show up all tacticool and it turns into battle vs cool take down vid.

Regardless, Koresh was a POS and I personally will not overlook/ignore that aspect regardless of the gubment response to it. Reno should have been fired, just as HC should have been for Benghazi, and on it goes.

Absolve Koresh? No, of course not. Did he need to be got? Absolutely.

[SteyrAUG]

Personally, the ultimate responsibility falls on Koresh, and the government response was over the top and totally avoidable. They wanted to a photo op that turned into a cluster F. They then made it worse with hoisting victory flags, etc. People have every right to be upset on various levels, but I think some lost fact of the sociopath pedophile running the cult who'd convinced all those people he was their God/speaking for God.

Simply wait for him to leave the compound, arrest him. Then have a plan to talk with those in the compound about it etc.

Not sure anyone wants to absolve Koresh. But if their goal was rescuing children, they failed...hard and more importantly that isn't the business of ATF. So the stated reason for the raid was informant information of illegal conversions to machine guns. Allegations of pedophilia and fabricated claims of dealing drugs in order to get military assistance from Delta are all tangential.

They assaulted a group of people in a building full of kids over possible illegal machine guns. As everyone involved noted, local LE stated they could have picked him up in town any time they wanted.

Add in things like they "lost" the front doors from evidence that might have proven ATF fired first and what looks like a classic "vent and burn" really do make this one scream of state sponsored terrorism.

[SteyrAUG]

Don't recall that, but meaning agents were killed by friendly fire? You can see the vid where the agents literally shot while attempting to enter the building and bullets coming up through the roof and such.

If it happened, it was probably the group moving on the front doors and not the ladder group trying to go in through the window. Keep in mind ATF controlled the video they shot they day, they are going to only show the things that support their position.

[WillBrink]

Absolve Koresh? No, of course not. Did he need to be got? Absolutely.

Not saying your are, I'm saying seen many who completely ignore his role in what happened, and only focus on the governments response.

[WillBrink]

Not sure anyone wants to absolve Koresh. But if their goal was rescuing children, they failed...hard and more importantly that isn't the business of ATF. So the stated reason for the raid was informant information of illegal conversions to machine guns. Allegations of pedophilia and fabricated claims of dealing drugs in order to get military assistance from Delta are all tangential.

They assaulted a group of people in a building full of kids over possible illegal machine guns. As everyone involved noted, local LE stated they could have picked him up in town any time they wanted.

Add in things like they "lost" the front doors from evidence that might have proven ATF fired first and what looks like a classic "vent and burn" really do make this one scream of state sponsored terrorism.

I think the pedo part was also supported by some of the survivors and other members, not sure on the drugs. It was total disaster to be sure and cover their A$$ was in full effect no doubt. The NF vid series supposedly has unseen footage from the FBI and such, so will report back when I view that.

If it happened, it was probably the group moving on the front doors and not the ladder group trying to go in through the window. Keep in mind ATF controlled the video they shot they day, they are going to only show the things that support their position.

Along with the lost door, not doubt when the lost footage...

[SteyrAUG]

Not saying your are, I'm saying seen many who completely ignore his role in what happened, and only focus on the governments response.

I think if we start with Koresh was a wacko cult leader who thought he was jesus but wore glasses and all of his followers were f'ing delusional morons who were waiting to get Jim Jonesed it somehow let's Reno and ATF off the hook and muddies the waters.

It's a bit like a SWAT team that hits the wrong damn house, kills three people but ironically those three people were running a meth lab. Lots of people are just "sounds like three people that we won't miss" and the fact that the SWAT team shot up the wrong damn house gets overlooked.

And that happens a LOT with Waco. So people who want to make sure they aren't in the "wrong house" someday want to keep the focus on what ATF and Reno did, not what Koresh did. Furthermore, if the FBI was investigating Waco because they had solid evidence of pedophilia and there were no better opportunities to arrest Koresh and they did their best to not turn it into a burning fiasco and maybe hit them quietly in a pre dawn raid, almost nobody would be criticizing anything.

But this was 100% about Reno grandstanding, giving Clinton justification the "assault weapon laws" he wanted and they were gonna boogeyman the Davidians as crazy cultists, probable white supremacists and kiddie rapers who were making machine guns for armageddon for every news outlet in the world. I'd say Reno was as dangerously delusional as Koresh was, like Koresh she was willing to sacrifice anyone to bring her world view into reality.