Help with SOT Dispute.

[MegademiC]

This situation isn't right, but damn that's a rookie move.


Agree 100%. And I only do transfers with them, no other business. Keeps things easy and clean.

I have a lawyer that drafted my trust, and does all my transfers. Hes not the cheapest, but its nice to not have to worry about anything. Hes one of the most zero-BS guys I know.

[Todd.K]

I might consider a charge back if you used a CC.

But it’s probably easiest to just move along and make sure the next SOT you use isn’t a jerk. If you can’t then maybe you’re the jerk in this.

[Bret]

If the product is paid for and the Form 4 is approved, you could have him charged with theft by conversion. Basically, if you pay someone for a product, he keeps the money and refuse to deliver the product, it's theft by conversion. His only defense would be having a valid reason to not complete the 4473, such as you can't legally possess it. Since the Form 4 was approved and he's willing to send it to another gun shop, that defense is out the window. Personally, I'd calmly tell him in person (or one of his employees if he's too much of a coward to talk to you face to face) that I am going to have him arrested for theft by conversion if he doesn't complete the transfer. If he still refused, I'd do it. BTW, there is no exception to the crime of theft by conversion just because this is an NFA item. It could apply to a non-NFA firearm or pretty much anything else as well. He has to deliver it or give you your money back, end of story.

[SteyrAUG]

If the product is paid for and the Form 4 is approved, you could have him charged with theft by conversion. Basically, if you pay someone for a product, he keeps the money and refuse to deliver the product, it's theft by conversion. His only defense would be having a valid reason to not complete the 4473, such as you can't legally possess it. Since the Form 4 was approved and he's willing to send it to another gun shop, that defense is out the window. Personally, I'd calmly tell him in person (or one of his employees if he's too much of a coward to talk to you face to face) that I am going to have him arrested for theft by conversion if he doesn't complete the transfer. If he still refused, I'd do it. BTW, there is no exception to the crime of theft by conversion just because this is an NFA item. It could apply to a non-NFA firearm or pretty much anything else as well. He has to deliver it or give you your money back, end of story.

Nonsense, all he has to say is he doesn't feel comfortable completing the transaction. ATF has been working hard to sell this mindset ever since they came up with that straw purchase nonsense. So if a FFL doesn't feel comfortable for any reason, at any point in the transaction...ATF says he should REFUSE to complete the transaction.

This guy is on so much solid ground as far as the ATF is concerned it isn't funny.

[elia.jon1]

A sot can't cancel an approved form only the person the form is for can. This is especially true after approval.

[Bret]

Nonsense, all he has to say is he doesn't feel comfortable completing the transaction. ATF has been working hard to sell this mindset ever since they came up with that straw purchase nonsense. So if a FFL doesn't feel comfortable for any reason, at any point in the transaction...ATF says he should REFUSE to complete the transaction.

This guy is on so much solid ground as far as the ATF is concerned it isn't funny.

You're missing the point. I'm not in the mood may hold water with the ATF, but it doesn't with the state on theft by conversion. They're two different entities. One is not beholden to the other. He has to provide the product or refund the money. That's it. If he doesn't, then he has committed a crime. If he tries to mount the "I don't feel comfortable" defense, it will fail as the approved form proves that the buyer can legally possess the item. Nobody at the ATF is going to testify at his defense.

[Bret]

Nonsense, all he has to say is he doesn't feel comfortable completing the transaction. ATF has been working hard to sell this mindset ever since they came up with that straw purchase nonsense. So if a FFL doesn't feel comfortable for any reason, at any point in the transaction...ATF says he should REFUSE to complete the transaction.

This guy is on so much solid ground as far as the ATF is concerned it isn't funny.

You're missing the point. I'm not in the mood may hold water with the ATF, but it doesn't with the state on theft by conversion. They're two different entities. One is not beholden to the other. He has to provide the product or refund the money. That's it. If he doesn't, then he has committed a crime. If he tries to mount the "I don't feel comfortable" defense, it will fail as the approved form proves that the buyer can legally possess the item. Nobody at the ATF is going to testify at his defense.

[SteyrAUG]

You're missing the point. I'm not in the mood may hold water with the ATF, but it doesn't with the state on theft by conversion. They're two different entities. One is not beholden to the other. He has to provide the product or refund the money. That's it. If he doesn't, then he has committed a crime. If he tries to mount the "I don't feel comfortable" defense, it will fail as the approved form proves that the buyer can legally possess the item. Nobody at the ATF is going to testify at his defense.

It will be no different than a person who special orders a firearm and fails their background check. True, they paid for it, but this isn't buckets of chicken. I've been in exactly that situation, the guy who special ordered it had to find a buyer because I wasn't gonna eat it. And it would have been true if that special order began to feel like a straw purchase.

But by all means people should go ahead and try theft by conversion in these situations. I've seen this movie about a hundred times and I've never seen things like that work. Most of the time when somebody decides to double down it just gets exponentially worse. And the drama typically comes from two things:

1. Buyer trying to find the cheapest game in town. But typically the "I'll transfer any NFA item for $24.99" crowd have a list of "my way or the highway" rules and if you don't follow them to the letter they will treat you like Buddy Hinton and his "free listings" page on the old sturmgewehr.

2. Not making specific arrangements with the SOT in question and understanding everything involved and assuming it will be exactly like transferring a pump shotgun and wanting to pay as little as possible but expecting the highest level of service possible.

I would estimate 65% of my customer base came from guys who had been f'ed over on a NFA transfer or ones who realized they were likely to get f'ed over on a NFA transfer if they proceeded with the SOT they were currently using.

I always took my time to explain everything I expected from the customer on my end and I did everything possible to make sure I understood everything they expected. And if it wasn't possible to meet their expectations, we found out before they spent any money.

[Bret]

It is different than a person who buys a firearm and fails their background check because he didn't fail. In fact, he passed a federal background check! The failure of a background check would be the only possible defense to a theft by conversion charge. It didn't happen here, so it doesn't apply. There is no special exemption for FFL's when it comes to theft by conversion. You listed out a bunch of stuff that doesn't apply to this particular situation. Stick to the facts at hand. Assuming the OP's information is correct, the dealer got his feelings hurt because of a bad review. I don't feel like giving someone the property they paid for because I got my feelings hurt is not a legal defense. Additionally, the dealer needs to be put in his place for attempting to use the BS NFA process to jerk someone around. Ultimately, the OP will have to decide what to do.

[SteyrAUG]

It is different than a person who buys a firearm and fails their background check because he didn't fail. In fact, he passed a federal background check! The failure of a background check would be the only possible defense to a theft by conversion charge. It didn't happen here, so it doesn't apply. There is no special exemption for FFL's when it comes to theft by conversion. You listed out a bunch of stuff that doesn't apply to this particular situation. Stick to the facts at hand. Assuming the OP's information is correct, the dealer got his feelings hurt because of a bad review. I don't feel like giving someone the property they paid for because I got my feelings hurt is not a legal defense. Additionally, the dealer needs to be put in his place for attempting to use the BS NFA process to jerk someone around. Ultimately, the OP will have to decide what to do.

Not trying to argue that. Just saying it's a similar "I don't wish to complete this transaction" scenario. Also not trying to defend the dealer, just explaining what likely happened. It will really come down to did the customer purchase the suppressor from the dealer or is he just a transfer agent in the NFA process.

If the customer purchased the suppressor directly from the SOT (which doesn't seem likely or it would have probably been in inventory), then you would be correct. He'd have to complete the transfer OR refund the purchase.

However if the customer purchased it from anyone else, and he was just the transfer agent, then he pretty much doesn't owe anybody anything and can refuse to complete the transaction as easily as a bakery can refuse to make a "Happy Birthday Hitler" cake.

I think lots of people are assuming it was purchased directly from the SOT in question, but if that was the case, it shouldn't involve a Form 3 transfer.